I could discuss free will with you all day mate, but;

Glad you’ve joined us as moderator, I don’t object but it would have been fairer if we had an agnostic to balance the discussion, but you’ll do. Xxx

I thought this was why you were quiet, I have too to be fair, but have enjoyed the discussion and to be fair to Tom, Blanca, Flake et al, they’ve given me a lot to think about over the weekend.

Im not trying to force anything down anyone’s throat as Flakes cartoon suggests but I don’t buy the idea that science has disproved God.

Fecking Einstein believed in God and he is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century. I doubt anyone will question his ability to use logic.

Which is why Im not convinced that we can take this discussion any further given his position.

Kowalski, I love you. Next time I see you we are going to french kiss.

Are we really going to do this?

I haven't read the thread yet, but I will do at some point. I'm at work so I'll keep it brief. Religion is a container for faith; there is no harm in having faith, and indeed we all need it, but I feel it would be far more beneficial to have faith in ourselves, and the people around us, than a power that is impossible to define without getting into debate over it. This causes all the intolerance and suffering we all hear about, and some go through, every day. Religion isn't a bad thing, but the aggravation caused by the stubborn few who cannot accept that it is "each to their own" regarding faith, is far too prominent, losing focus on the faith we should just have. I am not religious anymore, though I will still pray when the chips are down, mainly for my family, because their beliefs remain strong.

I think Einstein was agnostic and to be fair this was a progressive view for his time especially when you consider those godless commies in the USSR and the religious conservatism in the USA.

Dolphin, its clear you're outnumbered in this argument and its fair to say that none of us atheists are going to convert anytime soon so kudos for standing up for your beliefs.

Going back to what you infered by mentioning Einstein; I speculate that the uncomprehensibility of space and the begining of the universe etc. has driven very intelligent people to religion because science is currently unable to answer many of their questions. I actually believe there are things that humans cannot really understand such as dimensions beyond 4D, the begining of the universe, infinity and absolute nothing. We live in a world where our understanding derives from what we see, what we hear, what we feel and what we can calculate. Its extremely difficult, and probably impossible, for a brain that has evolved for survival in a physical world to be able to contemplate the exact origins of everything. I however do not believe religion really answers this question either because although its easy to say 'god created everything' it still has the same fundamental of problem of not being able to answer where god came from and where the matter that makes up the universe has come from.

We are arguing in a debate that has no resolution really though I find it very difficult to understand why the existance of any deities can be seen as even remotely likely. More importantly than the existance of god though is organised religion because this is what effects us. I can empathise with people believing in a higher power but I strongly disagree with religious organisations that insist they alone are correct. I appreciate that there are some 'good' moral values coming from various religions but there are also a lot of 'bad' ones. I believe that religion(and the abuse of religion) has been, and still is, responsible for slowing down human progress and causing a lot of suffering and antagonism.

At the end of the day I think wondering whether or not god exists and whether you should follow a strict set of beliefs is missing the point in being alive. Life is about being happy, appreciating beauty and discovering knowledge while trying to make changes, however small, to the world to make life better for all your fellow people both now and in the future. How romantic

In addition

What defines a god? The general definition of "the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe" is disproved by science. I'm aware that science itself could be wrong as I'm also aware that none of you may exist and I may be a dreaming robot made from delicious soup but this is all very unlikely, so much so it should be assumed impossible. Now, I do believe it is scientifically possible for there to be 'deities' i.e. "a supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force " because in many ways there are people and things that fit this definition however the 'God' in question is the abrahamic god who fits the first definition and thus I declare this god's existance to be, in the most practical definition of the word, impossible.

Oh I see, apologies to Tom, i didn’t follow.

I was arguing that theological questions are secondary to my point. I.e. by analogy, there is no point discussing whether apples and oranges taste sweet if you believe that apples and oranges have been scientifically disproved to exist.

I still don’t understand how?

Apologies if I’ve missed this too, maybe the moderator can clarify? (Wake up!!)

My point was regarding this you just said "go and look this up because i can't be bothered to explain it"
Which seems to be a bit odd I could just say "go and read Dawkins, Bertrand Russell and a few others then come back formulate my argument then argue against it"

This strikes me as really odd, you claim to be a muslim but this is an agnostic point of view. If you don't understand the nature of god how can you say with any definitive conviction who, what or if there is a god?
The only way to truely claim to know God is with faith in which case it's pointless arguing because logic and reason can't argue against blind faith.

He believed in a personnal God and he also doubted the random chance factor of quantum mechanics hence his quote "God does not play dice" which if you look at Einstein he really meant "nature does not play dice".

Dont make me call a Jeeeeehaaaad on your candy ass.

I believe the discussion ended with me understanding that Tom wasn’t in fact disagreeing with my primary point, however, Flake still does disagree and is sticking to his position.

What’s more to say...

And yes, you’re a poo moderator and such a shit stirrer!!

But we love you all the same. Xxx