Sorry to leave you hanging Tom, but that is in fact the orthodox position.

God is separate from his creation and is therefore nothing like it. Since man primarily experiences reality in his immediate surroundings it is impossible for man to truely know the "ultimate nature" of God in this life.

However, man was created to know God. In this life it is through reflection on his attributes by observing the world and also by contemplating revelation.

Much love. Xxx

So basically blind faith then, therefore the flying spaghetti monster is as valid a view point as believing in a abrahamic god

Hmmm.

No I disagree. When I consider the world, the universe in all its glory I think an infinite God that we are incapable of encompassing with our minds is a bit more probable than a flying spaghetti monster.

And Kowalski, i ban you as an impartial moderator from thanking Tom for every post. Get back on the fence!!

So you have!!

Awww. Kiss kiss. Xxx

I love how you're trying to argue with a agnostic point of view.
Whichever way you spin it, it boils down to the fact that, you cannot fully comprehend something which you don't first fully understand.

If you cannot definitely say you understand God then

- You can't confirm Gods existence, unless it's blind faith
- Can't claim God is good or bad, unless it's blind faith
- Can't claim Gods teachings are true, unless it's blind faith

If you don't fully understand then there could be something within your lack of understanding that changes it all.

When you say

This is entirely faith based opinion there are no facts or logic that support this therefore any point of view be it spaghetti monsters, Norse gods, Roman gods, scientology etc if believed with total faith are just as valid.

Right, all you PUA’s who don’t want to here me rant – put your fingers in your ears, me and Tom have some beef.

Thanks Tom, your right. The reason I’m going at lengths to discuss this with you is because I’m a thicko..

If my stating an orthodox belief sounds like agnosticism, well – we were here first.

That depends on your understanding of God. Yes you can’t put God under a microscope and say oh, there he is. By definition that is impossible.

Good and bad are subjective understandings and therefore exist outside of the absolute.

There are many logical arguments, but logic can be used for and against God. Even “supposed miracles” can be logically explained away. Jesus raised a man from the dead and some people who saw it said, eh – magic. Im not arguing that should be a proof for anyone today who didn’t witness it, just that logically we can argue for and against anything.

My faith teaches that man is born with a part within him that inclines towards belief in God, and always looks for this spiritual need. If we look at history, people on different continents who never met, have always believed that the world must have had a creator, so logically I can argue for this. No doubt you will have a logical counter argument.

Yes, the validity of a belief depends on what knowledge is available to that given person at that time. Except spaghetti monsters...

Yep I am right.

No you weren't, the orthodox belief has evolved over time the agnostic one hasn't.

Therefore you cannot claim he to be real unless it's taken on faith by some teaching of ancient people we don't share morals or many other provable facts with. By your logic (or should that be faith) anything that cannot be proved at the time is valid.


But that's all it is faith, people on different continents have doubted the existence of a creator, people have manipulated with religion. I think religion is a evolutionary misfire that hasn't disappeared because you can actually survive believing it.
Ancient people were wrong about so many other things and religions have evolved as human understanding has progressed.

many gods > one god > no god

Simples!


Nope if someone truely believes in flying spaghetti monster then it's as valid as islam infact i'd say it's better to believe in the flying spaghetti monster.

Particulaly this teaching (well actually an I'd really rather you didn't

The bottom line is you either believe god is real by faith or you can't say if he/she/it/monster is real or not

The end