kowalski
You have alot of good information to give.

You seem to have a very rigid way of thinking. I mention palming reading as an example of a routine, then you talk to me like i spent many long hours learning palmistry, when in fact my studying of this lasted about 60 seconds, I quickly noted the head,heart,fate and life lines, and thats it. I have only ever tried using it 2 or 3 times in my life, so its not exactly something i rely on.

I made a post a few months back,about a girl in work, i was getting ioi's off, then i got a reply back saying, don't go getting obsessed with just one girl, and go out meet other women, was good advance, but who the fuck said i was obsessed with this girl, and how the hell did he no i wasnt going out and meeting other women. My point here is that his comment was nothing more than his interpretation and mental projection of the small amount of information i give him, a mindless snap judgment.

kowalski
Your incorrectly interpreting what am saying,jumping to conclusions,trying to label me as some MM brain washed individual.

I would like to make this clear, I have been defending routines, despite this i don't believe they are the best way to build attraction, things that you have mentioned,confidence,dominance,playful,witty,showi ng understanding,vulnerability, being the alpha male, are far more important and effective than any routine.

Opinion openers,and routines have been my training wheels,i have learned from using them that they are not very important when it comes to being good with women. But without them i would not of realized certain things. 9 out of 10 women i approach using opinion openers respond very well, this has given me confidence, in doing so has improved my innergame, now i do sometimes approach direct, and this has been increasing.

Maybe the reason for some people trying routines is inauthentic, but my reason was to learn.

Maestro

In the last year, i have fucked a stripper and an ex pole dancer, so am not doing to bad.

Language is something that flows from within you do not need any external tools to structure your linguistic utterings. your words.

Some People do need this help, some do need external tools to help structure there linguistic utterings, some people do not know how to express themselfs in words in language, someone who has been very shy, closed off from the social world, they dont no what to say,what not to say. You cant just tell somebody like that be confident,be authentic, because he wont be able to use that information in a way that will be helpful. I think that person needs to develop his social intelligence, so he can express himself in a socially exceptionable manner, only then will saying be confident and authentic be of use.

So i believe a person becomes socially intelligent by experimenting with language, like asking for opinions, or maybe using routines of some kind. If you try using a routine and it comes across really lame, you have just improved your social intelligence, as long as you learn from it.

If you have never had trouble with social intelligence you may find this hard to understand, but i promise you it can be a big problem for alot of people, even if there not aware of the problem themselfs. Or in other words unconscious incompetence.

So guys on here that have good social intelligence dont need routines for this reason, can focus on natural game.

Now i have alot better social understanding, i understand routines are not a great way to create attraction, but am glad i tried them.

Shy people know exactly what to say and what not to say, they just don't allow themselves to be that person in certain situations, i.e. around girls. when they are comfortable, rest assured, they will express themselves. When uncomfortable, they will be stifled and 'run out of things to say'.

Giving them tools like routines, made by themselves or be Mystery will not expand their unhealthy view that they CAN BE THEMSELVES without being judged somehow.

Shy people know exactly what to say and what not to say, they just don't allow themselves to be that person in certain situations, nova quote.

If they new what to say and there fore knowing how to handle social situations, they would be more confident in many different social situations, and would never be shy in for first place.

lack of social intelligence, leads to getting criticized, leads to low confidence = shyness.

Rubbish. They know exactly how to behave. How come a shy person behaves comfortably around people he's known for years, yet suddenly crumbles in front of a hot girl? Surely there's something wrong here that needs addressing.

You're only scratching the surface as to a shy person's issues Zone. If only it was as simple as giving them a set of lines to read. So then, what after they've read your (or their own) made up lines. They suddenly come out their shell? You could have a nice flowing approach sure... step 1. But hey, there's more to laying a girl and more to relationships with other people than reeling off an act.

Another point to raise with regards to your formula (is it your own?).

You say being criticised leads to lack of confidence. So what is your answer to tackling this part of your shyness formula? Don't tell me that running routines leads to less criticism.

Regardless, to me it has been realising that I must learn to not let people's criticism affect me (as much as before at least)... in the same way you must learn to not let a hot girl telling you she has a boyfriend affect your behaviour in situ.

I wouldn't mind adding my opinion again to this discussion.

I agree with kowalski and nova. However, I understand where Zone is coming from when he talks about routines/canned material helping social intelligence and shyness infront of HB's.

I'll use my pesonal experience to elaborate (Zone, before you get defensive, the following is my personal experience, I am in no way suggesting that your experience mirrors mine). I'll be as brief as I can.

Years ago I would be in a bar/club, I would see a HB and a mate would say "go over to talk to her". Simple advice, and the correct one. However, at the time those words were useless to me - I felt like I didn't have a clue what to say to her and hence was far too nervous to approach.

Years later I read The Game and looked into MM and thought "This is fucking superb. With these openers and routines etc, I finally know what to say to women." I also looked into natural/inner game stuff, but I soon dismissed it, because I was convinced that being myself (shy etc) was the root of my difficult with women in the first place.

So for the first time ever I started approaching women with the jealous girlfriend opener etc. It didn't bother me at the time that the opener was BS, I was just happy that I was interacting HB's. However, when women started questioning the authenticity of the opener and my motives, I was shoved onto the backfoot so hard that I was falling over, because I knew I was talking shit and couldn't rationally defend it.

Then I started reading people's post regarding natural/inner game and e-books, and it was like I was reading it through a different pair of eyes to when I orginally read that kind of stuff 18 months ago. Now, my perspective has shifted and my mindset has changed.

However, I have no doubt in my mind that without reading The Game and MM (which as someone else said, does have some merit, and has definitely improved my knowledge on the psychology of women) - I would not have made the realization that I can be my natural, awesome self as long as I kick away all the fear and limiting beliefs that bury it.

So I truly am grateful for The Game, MM. You may say that I was lying and being fake when using it. Yes I was. But it was a start. And trust me, it was a hell of a lot better than what was happening before - which was nothing, just being incredibly frustrated and very miserable.

I'll end with a quote as I'm in a quotey mood -

"Lessons always arrive when you are ready, and if you can read the signs, you will learn everything you need to know in order to take the next step". Paulo Coelho, The Zahir (read on Jonny Wilkinsons autobiography!)

[quote=nova;18026]Rubbish. They know exactly how to behave. How come a shy person behaves comfortably around people he's known for years, yet suddenly crumbles in front of a hot girl?

Am not just talking about girls, yeah they can be very open and comfortable with people they no, but shy with people they don't, thats because they subconsciously know certain areas of there social skills are weak, so there not as confident with interacting with people they don't.

Yeah my formula is limited,there are other reasons why a person is shy.

[quote=Zone;18056]Therefore your advice of doing routines won't help them. Unless you think they should learn a routine for when they meet men they don't know too.