I've been wrestling with this moral dilemma lately and still I don't know exactly which camp im in. I guess for me it depends on your intentions, if you know a girl is married/in a serious relationship and all you want to do is fuck her and then forget her for me that is wrong. Because your brief selfish act can be potentially destructive having long-term implications on the girl and indirectly on the guy she's with.

However I think if you genuinely like the girl and you seek a longer term investment with her and if you feel/know she likes you back then I find that more understandable to pursue. Think about it, many relationships become routine and stale after a while, the spark has gone and their relationship merely exists rather than living it to the full. That is sad. By perhaps getting involved with her whilst being mindful and respectful of her own moral dilemma allowing her to become accustomed and associated with you at her own pace is the possibly the best way to handle it.

There is no pleasant way to end a relationship. However your involvment in ending a relationship between two people could be the catalyst to allow both the girl and guy in the previous relationship to move on to better and more satisfying things. Chances are they may look back at your act and say 'That was for the best'.

We all know and see girls in relationships they are not satisfied with, they may feel compelled to stay in an unfulfilling relationship due to moral, cultural obligations or simply because there are no other offers on the table. Instead they bumble through life with blinkers on, disatisfied and repress urges and desires.

I feel sad for people in that situation. Surely as men of value we should be rescuing such damsels in distress, awakening them from their sad existence and allowing them to experience a more satisfying chapter in their lives within our reality! This is a benevolent act. If they guy has been such a chode to have not pleased his girl (or even attempted to) then he only really has himself to blame.

Say if you took a job offer in a high profile position, worked one week then another job opportunity came up which you felt was more suited to you and more satisfying. Would you take it? Bearing in mind the company that just hired you has spent time money and resources selecting you as the ideal candidate, rejecting many other potential recruits, they also have a long term vision for you in mind. You now also have contractual obligations. The sudden other job offer would be your dream job? You know you would love to do that job.

If you feel life is too short and your own satisfaction and well-being is important to you, then you will likely hand in your notice in a heart-beat. If you become too concerned about how your employer will react and the potential mess you could leave then you will probably let a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity pass you by.

I would be quite interested in hearing a couple of these competing arguments, if or when you have time. I'm also a little confused at the moment with regards to this subject. Although I still have very high value on the kind of love that is attainable in an exclusive relationship, and very much hope one day to experience it, since I have got involved in this community I have come to realise that this mind set was actually quite detrimental to myself. This thing that I believed in so strongly before, was actually just an insecure feeling, of wanting to feel more whole as a person, or whatever. Quite an eye opener!

@SJ I know exactly what you mean, I came from that mindset to. I used to look at guys who would pull girls in relationships with distain. Without wishing to sound too flipant about the moral issues in question, now I think just think 'fair enough' if she's game. In this community you hear things like 'Be the man who takes what he wants' banded about, if a guy is doing just that then good luck to him I say.

Kowalski, I realised as soon as I'd posted that there were flaws in the quote you picked up on and I left myself wide open. However I would like to think that most people on this forum are intelligent enough to decipher what I mean. Clearly its not ok to just do whatever you want (although apart of me thinks it would be nice) total chaos and disregard for others would ensue if that was the case, civility would be seriously underthreat.

I mean in the context of pick-up specifically, if a guy see's a girl he likes/wants I say good luck to him if he's willing to take a chance on hooking up with her (through legal means). I for one cannot condone that, in his mind he is taking right action, that is good.

Like I said before, I still don't really know for sure where I stand on this debate. Although I feel of late that I am erring towards if a girl in a relationship is up for hooking up then it demonstrates to me that her relationship is not of such a great significance to her that she feels 100% commital towards it. Perhaps there are underlying issues within her relationship that don't make her feel fully satisfied. In that scenario I think its ok to proceed, but proceed with caution, don't go in like a bull in a china shop have consideration and compassion for peoples feelings where necessary.

One thing I do believe whole-heartedly is if you go around picking up girls in relationships 'just because you can', getting your fill and then discarding them, then you are a cunt I have no respect for that. However if you like a girl who is in a relationship she is not satisfied with and she likes you back (because she is attracted to the true expression of your authentic self, not because you are running game) and you end up hooking up, I don't see a problem with that. I know Nova was in this sort of situation a few months back when he got with his girl so I would like to hear his take on this.

This community teaches some great principles and equally some terrible ones. Often in routine based game techniques like 'Boyfriend Destroyers' and language patterns to try to get a girl to leave her guy for you are lame shit. These sorts of techniques are purely selfish with litte regard for genuine human feelings, the instigator is not entuned with his moral compass whatsoever. This sort of thing I am uncomfortable with and find morally questionable.

Let me tell yer, there's nothing like getting blown out 4 times in a row to bring you down a peg or two.

I went day gaming again today for an hour or two, and it was the strangest experience I've had since going out sarging.

I started out feeling on top of the world today. I got into town and literally felt like I could approach absolutely anyone. An extremely cut blonde was sat on a bench as I was walking past and I went straight in. We had a funny little chat, she was actually a bit young for me. 18 is the same age as my little sister, and after I found out her age I had decided I wasn't gonna try and go for the close, but regardless she had a good sense of humour and we had some giggles.

So I was feeling pretty damn confident at this point and spotted a pretty fine ass looking girl in a shoe shop stood waiting to greet customers by the doorway, and she smiled at me so I thought 'thats it now babe you can't smile at me like that and expect to get away with it!', so I went in and said e "I'm not interested in buying any shoes but I am interested in talking to you". This was easily the best interaction I had all day, and altyhough she didn't give me her number, cos she's got a boyfriend booooooooooo, she did insist on taking mine and gave me her name for face book. So we'll see how that one pans out.

Anyway, enough bragging, cos it certainly wasn't all roses let me tell yer. After this I completely started to bollox up. I approached one extremely sexy asian girl in TK Max, and she looked at me like I was asking for money or something. So anyway I laughed it of and carried on. Next I opened a girl in the mall outside of TK Max. An interesting looking woman with dreadlocks, but extremely pretty and a smoking bod. She was receptive, but just thanked me for my compliment and put her headphones back in. Sooo I thought fuck it, no biggy and went onward. Stopped a girl outside HnM, a tall brunette with looks that could stop traffic (in the good sense) and she was just like "sorry I've got to go!" leaving me stood there like a big issue seller, gutted. And then to top it off I tried stoppiung another girl in the street, and she just said "Sorry, no thanks!" Huh, I feel broken! Getting this many rejections in a row is just not good for a mans head. I'm doing my best to focus on the positive sets I had to begin with, but I'm finding it really hard to shake this chodey feeling. Hopefully it will pass!

To be honest this sounds WAY more positive than negative! You had good interactions with as many girls as lack of response - 50/50 is a f*cking good ratio. Just a shame it came after the good times I guess.

I'd pat yourself on the back mate, you did bloody good.

Yeah your'e absolutely right man. I think it's just cos i left it on a bad note that i'm pissed really. I just hope it doesn't affect my day game.

Dude! I think this is quality! The results you got are very good! Just forget the blow outs. It's happened before... it will happen again.

Food thought indeed. That is an interesting bit of information, one that I have surprisingly never considered. Especially in the week when people are busy bodying around to and from work or shopping around quickly before teatime. This certainly makes sense and causes me to be a bit less harder on myself.
I've not actually read Jugglers stuff yet. I do intend to, as I do intend to read a load of other stuff. I remember Blanca said he would email me Juggler Method (Blanca where you at?)

Damn it I knew there'd be consequences!
Cheers for the links.