i don't think that's 100% true. If they are a non PUA & focus more on being social, conquering your inner beliefs and hold ups & ultimately help you develop as a person I think it can be beneficial. I've been to see a therapist for similar reasons & whilst I wouldn't say it was amazing or life changing, it was ok. What I don't agree with is paying money to someone to just re-gurgatate canned material which you can get free from books or online, and some guy telling you that within 1 week he'll gurantee you'll be shagging everythign that moves.

I also don't agree that any coach will "give away his best material for free". Now THAT would be moronic. What is coaching to this person? Regardless of other labels, its a job. What, aside from passion or helping people do you also require from a job? Money, income. If a coach is giving away his best ideas for free he's an idiot. That's where you make your money.

I agree with the first part. My initial statement was a little ignorant, I admit.

As for the second part, maybe I'm wrong there, too. Maybe not ALL coaches do it, for example Neil Strauss if you can count him - does he even have anything that's free? I doubt he has anything that you could pay for either apart from his vague, surface level books. But I think it's fair to say that the majoriity are going to use their best material for promotional purposes, encouraging people to part with their money in the first place. Let's say Tyler for example purposes... what could he possibly have to offer that isn't in his videos? I think common sense would tell most people not to pay this guy to coach them for a specific situation such as a problem in a relationship and he has multiple videos for every pick up related topic you could probably think of. How is he going to top that just because money is involved?

Tyler isn't an idiot. He knows everybody torrents these days. The videos are 90% filler, even I noticed that when I liked them. He also rehashes general self-help stuff.

Those videos are there to keep his listeners/viewers/target audience in the loop to buy a free tour/hotseat/bootcamp. That is where they make ALL their money. They even admit this themselves.

And the free tour isn't really free, you have to leave a deposit which you have to jump through a few hoops to get back. Then at the free tour they will pressure you into a hotseat or bootcamp. And from the hotseat they will pressure you into a bootcamp. The free tour gets hundreds of people per night, it'd only take 2% of them to take a hotseat/bootcamp fincially profitable if you consider how many people don't end up getting their deposit back.

I've been to a free tour which became the beginning of the end of my PUA brainwashing. I also don't think the above tactic is manipulative or particularly bad. But it is why they give out seemingly endless videos from every instructor every week.

Granted I've never actually been to an event or anything, but I've torrented a few things here and there... and I honestly found most of it crap. It all seemed like... pointless theory. I'll give a few examples:

Adam Lyons: "The conventional, well known pick up methods are all wrong! Here's the correct ones, cause I say so!" (even though I like a lot of his stuff, this is just him all over - and his free stuff is only half as bad as his paid stuff)

Gambler: actually nah I can't really fault Gambler. A little too much theory but if a guy followed Gambler and only Gambler, he'd get some fantastic results.

Jeffy: Just be a fucking weirdo. Most women will think you're a rapist, but some will fuck you because you'll wear them down so much that they're riddled with insecurities. You will, however, have fucking fantastic text game, with girls who already wanted to fuck you. - his free videos actually impress me a little, sometimes, though.

Tyler: "Be a dick! Walk up to her and say you're scared of the dark, then call her a bitch! Self amusement! She'll walk away, but so what!" - pretty much exactly the same in both his free material and his paid shit, but RSD have that painful, cringe worthy "cult" vibe that really gives a strong sense of "Just 1 more seminar and I'll finally have it! Ah, I think I should get 1 more" and it never ends... this feeling of forever being "almost there" like theres some kind of end goal.

Julien: I'm a fucking retard. - he's a retard. Lol.

but, having never been to a bootcamp, my opinion could be absolutely way off. Unless I'd laid money down, I'd probably be viewing it from more of a "Nah, wouldn't work. Not natural enough" point of view.

No PUA's have anything of much value that's free - Shah pretty much sums it up. Every video you click on is pretty much "I'm away to share a secret with you that the worlds best PUA's/seducers/women don't want you to know. Are you ready - here we go". The video willl then last around 20 minutes and make multiple references to this secret, before getting to that end and not really telling you much ir keeping you on a hook by filling you with so much potential. At the end you'll be told something like the secret this guy has found has been put in a report & you need to buy it "Now we only have 50 copies and that's it/this has to sell by midnight tonight/this normally retails for £1200 but today I'm going to give it to you for £49" - common & classic sales techniques used by internet businessmen the wolrld over not unique to ~PUA. I've gone back to pages 1 month later where the offer only lasts until midnight or only 50 copies are for sale and it's still there - load of bullshit.

Every video or newsletter you get is filler or gives some small titbits, along with probably stressing how your getting this for free or how amazig it is. You end up being impressed by it being free/amazing that when their next product comes out which is more advanced then what they have been talking about, you end up buying it. You also notice if a PUA begins to release a flurry of small videos or newsletters over a small period of time, its usually because he's building up to the release of his next big product which is probably "goin g to change the game FOREVER/nobody has tried this before/I've spent 5 years perfecting this method" etc etc

If PUA all worked, these guru's would alll be millionaires but in reality in this day in age a lot of them I'd imagine are struggling. Sorry but I don't believe for one minute Gambler is living a jet set lifestyle or shagging Russian super models - I bet he's doing ok/maybe breaking even if not worse. I've met him, he came across as incredibly shy, nervous & not very confident - he's a bit of a mumbler & it can be quite difficult to understand what he says especially when he stammers and constantly says "ummm". I get the same impression from his videos. If he's not confident enough to talk to a room of 10 guys in a pub there's no way he's taking home "10's" - it's all bullshit for his business or hired models you see in the photo shoots. In actual fact the instructors on the booot camp i was on were miles better than him, I weas so disapointed, the way he acted you'd think he'd never spoken to a women before - seriously.

PUA was huge in the mid 2000's when Mystery/Style & Gambler started off, there's only so long it can last and only so much material you can put out before you've done everything.

Again - why on Earth would a business man give his away his best ideas for free? How's he going to make his money then, by selling lesser content? If you already have the best ideas your not going to spend money on stuff that isn't as good, because your going to make more money and sell your best ideas at a higher price. Bill Gates & Steve Jobs didn't get where they were by giving away the windows operating system & iPhones for free, but charging folk for internet explorer & iTunes.

It is true, these dating coaches do hide their best material. And the biggest problem is that even if they give it away for free or charge an extortionate rate; If you found out what really attracts the girls. Would it be helpful?

I've got a DVD at home by a guy called "Evolve", who goes on and on about using Zodiac astrology. Claiming that he can pick up any girl he wants by just talking about zodiac signs. Saying how he would invite girls back to his place for a star chart reading, and start asking questions of a sexual nature to help with the reading. As he turns to the viewers with a serious caution. "be careful with this stuff. IT'S VERY POWERFUL"

I don't give a dam. I know that Zodiac Astrology is a load of crap, but if it gets the girl wet, who cares.

One night in camden, a few years ago. I started talking to a Dutch girl, and sure enough. "what's your star sign?" I calmly asked.
In a sudden explosion of emotional detest she bellowed back "I hate star signs, WHAT! No, star signs are fake, WHAT! NO!"

Not to be put off. I carried on trying to use star signs on other women, in a deluded attempt to manipulate them into sleeping with me.

And sure enough, out of about twenty different ladies, every single woman would have a similar response. They would suddenly give me a dirty look. As if I was barking mad for asking such a thing.

I've since never talked about stars signs, but I do know what must women find attractive about me. That is the fact I am a singer. The way her eyes light up when I tell her this. How she suddenly becomes interested in listening to how I entered a singing competition. Does knowing my most attractive aspect help anyone?

Or Neil Strauss' hidden material is basically him name dropping all the famous A-list celebrities he has interviewed. Does that help anyone?

All PUA openers and routines are just supplements. The most attractive thing about you is you.

But I see it as a paradox. If I hadn't of gone up and talked about star signs, I would never have been in conversation with any girls and discovered that the most attractive thing about me is that I'm a singer.

In my opinion; you can't pick up a girl with PUA openers or routines and you can't pick up a girl without PUA openers and routines.

no, it's called a paradox. the statement is still the same if I state it as "You can pick girls up with PUA openers and routines. You can pick girls up with out PUA openers and routines." The statement contradicts itself and offers no help to any one.

The only reason one would be looking at PUA openers and routines, is because one needs help with getting a date. And we were debating free PUA material against paid for material. Also the business acumen of dating coaches.

And I stated that it's all a PARADOX. The point of the story is that:

Your dammed if you do, your dammed if you don't.

I hate saying it but kowalski is bang on lol

You can't Quote half a sentence, without putting "....." Before or after. You must be a spastic. You can't lie to me about me.

And millions of people don't do it every day. Hence the mere creation of the PUA Forum. Hence the reason behind the creation of PUA openers and routines.

Drop, I'd advise you to get the conversational skills to think for yourself. Maybe practice with word association or something, to get you to the point where routines and this false paradigm (for lack of a better word)
of "this pua stuff" as some kind of external mental book of routines in your repertoire that you use to trick women into bed, is a thing of the past. It's not that hard, and your results will go through the roof. I personally guarantee it. We've all done it. I won't rule out routines completely because I've been known to pull out the 5 lies game for a laugh. But to have routines as your default setting, you're setting yourself up to be a one trick pony who can't keep a woman interested unless Neil Strauss releases a new book.

Sorry if there are any typing fails in here - autocorrect and fat thumbs. Fixed what I could find.