This thread may meander somewhat - not because the concepts are half-baked but because I haven't quite put them in order in my head yet. Anywho, try and keep up and here we go.

It has been suggested that attraction is caused by value. People are attracted to people of value - men are attracted to women with nice tits, child-bearing hips and a slender, young figure; women to men who command the reactions, attention and control of a group. These values have been imposed by many millions of years of evolutionary biology to ensure the survival and advancement of the species. They explain why I was attracted to my not-especially-pretty friend, and why we occasionally see beautiful women with fat, ugly men. These "rules" have always been here and will continue to be here for as long as we survive.

However, it is my belief that a second value system is elbowing its way into the fray. At times competing with evolutionary biology, at others working with it synergistically. This value system is Social Conditioning.

I would like to think that many of us in this corner of the community are outgrowing, or have outgrown social conditioning. We have our own values, our own way of doing things and our own personalities and don't need to be told how to do things by Hugh Grant films, magazines, music and newspapers. You could say we are unplugged from the matrix - waking up to the idea that the world is not out to make us happy. It is out to make us unhappy, because the best consumer is an unhappy one looking to fill a void in their life.

That's us. We make friends easily because of our magnetic personalities, have fun lives because we do what we enjoy, and most of all we are happy and free. Lovely. However (and here comes something controversial), I'd wager that I could count the number of people on here who go out and regularly and frequently pull beautiful women on one hand. Most of us (myself included), whilst having some success, aren't achieving anything like rock-star levels of pulling. Even Phil (whose "far-fetched" stories I believe) would say he only pulls (and converts) a genuine hotty once a blue moon. Why should this be for such a group of awesome individuals? The answer is:

Most people are not unplugged from the matrix.

Do you really think that people out there actually realise what we realise? Some of the cleverest people I've met are still completely invested in the ideals that social conditioning has taught them - "it's possible to look as good as the airbrushed model on the cover of Vogue", "all you need to do to get the girl of your dreams is be there for her", "buying this sofa in the DFS Sale will mean you have a happy family and a happy life", "your Prince Charming is just around the corner".

This same model is competing with evolutionary biology. Men are told Jessica Alba is the hottest woman in the world - something I only realised I disagree with a few months ago. We are told if a woman isn't as pretty as Kelly Brook we shouldn't be interested, never mind the fact that from an evolutionary point of view we don't give a shit about a girl's face. We are told that real men wear Calvin Klein boxers and look like the bloke on the box, and guess what? We've started believing it. Ever wonder why guys are packed into gyms or on diets or getting highlights done? We believe it so strongly because everyone else does too.

Let's take women - from whatever age they pick up Vogue/Grazia/Elle, they have it rammed home to them that the most attractive men have a six-pack, pecs and are the epitome of the chiselled jawline. Real men, they are told, play rugby, work out all the time and are the sort of people who are so handsome it's enough to make you sick. And guess what? Women have started to believe it too. What's more, the hottest ones realise they can realistically expect it from a chap - they can afford to be that picky. Not only this, but society builds into women the idea that the absolutely must not, under any circumstance, obey their sexual desires and have one-night stands. Girls who do this are slappers, hussies and whores. Now where's that thread on hot girls having one-night stands?

Clearly something must be done (and this is where my thinking becomes half-baked and you guys come in). The way I see it, we have 2 criteria to fulfill - being attractive from the view of evolution, and being attractive from the view of social conditioning. However, since this would mean getting ripped and weaing CK/Boss/Armani for other peoples' approval (a lame and needy thing to do), I can only conclude we must make ourselves so awesome that we bypass social conditioning entirely. No mean feat when we consider 95%+ of the population is completely sold on it, and opting out of it, they are told, will result in unhappiness and dispair.

Let's hear your thoughts anyways. Has anyone here noticed the mathematically inevitable surge in success with the hotties associated with their reality finally tipping the see-saw against social conditioning?

Discuss!

Blanca, You have no idea how right you are.

I've just reading a book before I read this. The exact line I stopped on was

"Why is there this taboo against sexual self-definition and self-actualization? Why is it that, while no two societies can agree on what is sexually "good" and sexually "bad," every society thinks that it must make some definition?"

Some excellent points, well made.

Being outside the matrix as you call it is all well and good, the key is to plug yourself back in from time to time and be able to utilise the insights gained by virtue of possessing a broader perspective on life, society etc.

Sometimes, on those agonisingly rare occasions where everything is in tune, I look good, feel good, I know exactly what to do and say without having to think, when I'm on absolute top form, I seem to be able to step back and survey the whole scene. And you know, I almost feel sorry for the people I'm playing. At times like that I see just how deeply plugged in they really are, and I feel how wonderful it is to not be.

perhaps carmada.... looks are important maybe they r not... and pua method doesn't actually work.. it just gives guys the confidence to approach so they succeed further than they would because prior to PUA they never made an approach.. maybe, the more u practice you get better naturally and all the pick up method is CRAP... maybe its not??...

I think you've missed my point slightly Camarda. My point is that, through continuous input from social conditioning from year dot, women have learned that finding a bloke attractive because of his magnetic alpha personality is not enough - he must fit in with the pre-acquired images of an "attractive man". How many times do you hear women saying of a bloke "if he was a bit hotter I'd definitely get with him"? My flatmates were forever coming out with it.

In fact, having re-read your posts, I do agree with you on many points. For instance, a girl who perceives you to be of high value will be attracted to you, and the trick is to be of high value. Before social conditioning, this was the natural alpha stuff. Now, however, there are mitigating factors such as looks creeping in. On an evolutionary level, they are barely a drop in the ocean, but if the girl is unsure of your value, something as trivial as looks may be enough to close the door.

So we are finding ourselves with a slightly changed value system - the solution to which, I propose, is to become of such awesome value that you blow every socially-conditioned bullshit value out of the water and clean up.

Isn't that why one of the PUA tools is NLP, to re-program the social conditioning that women have been taught?
If you've ever used the "yes ladder" to take you to a one night stand then you've done it.

When you're doing pickup though, there's no reason why you shouldn't go some way towards these images that people have been preprogrammed with, considering its social significance.

Its different for every culture as well!

Why?

Your right evolution has programed us to be imtimated by the beutiful woman im approaching all the time im getting good conversation from them but not getting to the seductive level as im still i admit in awe of them but im getting better all the time but i know that something in our sub concious is saying you should not be chatting up this hot woman!.But i know that its going to be a real challenge to gain the confidence and magnetism to light up there minds show real socail confidence.I would love to pull a couple of nines before i hit the grave well enjoyed your deep thought provoking thread.

interesting thread...

of course women judge a man on a number of crieria, looks being a key one. that's prefectly natural. if you're unfortunate to be considered physicall unattractive, then that's a major handicap for you to deal with if you want to sleep with beatiful women. this isn't fair, but then life isn't fair, and thinking it is is seriously going to fuck you up. life is great, but it isn't fair.

if that sounds harsh, then think about how you judge a women. if she's a little too fat, skinny, ugly etc... and you think you can do better then you probably wouldnt want to be in a relationship with her. it's superficial, but it's how we all are.