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Originally Posted by Stein
Right, here we go then.
When I asked you that I meant it in terms of what you actually posted rather than that, so I'm not going to address the stuff that's irrelevant to that.
For most of your post, I'll just say this. Game is game, there aren't really city-specific rules aside from logistics. Even cultural shifts between countries aren't a massive deal. The key thing is having the social acuity to adapt to the specifics of individual situations and people. Given what I've seen of your game though, being non-direct, absolutely nonsexual and giving an easy way for them to disengage and leave is all essential for you right now. No offense but that's where you're at.
So on to things with substance
They'e under no obligation to see it from your perspective, and have no immediate way of doing that anyway. If you want to talk to them, it's your obligation to see it from theirs.
Bear in mind especially if you're doing day game, girls aren't out with the intent of talking to strange guys. They're going about their day. They have their minds on other things. They might have a boyfriend or a guy they already know they're into. Also, being girls they have a very acute awareness that they're vulnerable in public - girls, through experience, have learned to watch out for and avoid potential situations that could involve street harassment, assault, or even just guys awkwardly hitting on them while they try to get on with their day.
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Thanks Stein, you've definitely given me a lot to think about, here. Like you say, I am better off trying to spark up normal platonic conversations. I watched a lot of YouTube videos that made me feel pathetic if I wasn't in some way "alpha" and "man to woman", but I've realised that those videos were not helpful now.
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They'e under no obligation to see it from your perspective, and have no immediate way of doing that anyway. If you want to talk to them, it's your obligation to see it from theirs.
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I didn't mean the women I was approaching, I meant the users on this forum. I think there was a bit of confusion, there!
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Bear in mind especially if you're doing day game, girls aren't out with the intent of talking to strange guys. They're going about their day. They have their minds on other things. They might have a boyfriend or a guy they already know they're into. Also, being girls they have a very acute awareness that they're vulnerable in public - girls, through experience, have learned to watch out for and avoid potential situations that could involve street harassment, assault, or even just guys awkwardly hitting on them while they try to get on with their day.
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I get that females feel vulnerable, which is also why I find the idea of day game to be very creepy and sketchy, the whole way that you have to spot and then "home in" onto your target feels wrong to me, but that is what you physically have to do to make contact with them. I've often raised this concern with coaches and they've told me that it is "all in my head" which has lead to me forcing myself to ignore those signs of "this is creepy, don't do it".
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So let's take an example from the video. They're all basically the same, but let's pick the girl in the shorts with the headphones as an example as their's more to work with. Imagine you're that girl. You're on your way to get the bus and meet your mates or whatever, and a guy, larger and physically stronger than you, pulls up. Things you notice:
- He's directly in front of you. Why?
- He's on a bicycle. Why?
- He's wearing a camera which, means he's probably filming you without asking. Why?
- He's put his hand up directly in front of you and says stop as if he's a policeman. Why?
You'd probably stop, in case this is something serious. But what at that point would you think was going on? I'd think I was being redirected by volunteer police or something. It's not impossible to get around that as a starting point if you addressed the randomness of it, but then you go:
"Umm...you look quite fun to ummm... talk to"
How are you supposed to react to that? This ties in with a thing Dan was saying about being genuine. Insincerity is sub communicated when talking to people, generally in the form of incongruence.
The approach and the line after make absolutely no sense next to each other. If you genuinely wanted to chat with someone because you genuinely think it'd be fun you wouldn't roll up on them filming them and stop them in their tracks like that. The way you're behaving is congruent in the your context of "I'm going out to gather incel evidence by approaching women, deploying my opener I got off a youtube video and filming it", but makes absolutely fuck all sense for her. This is why people's interactions seem so baffled. It makes no sense.
The opener itself is fine, but there are tons of openers that are fine. The issue is that it makes no sense to say that in that context, and on top of that you have nowhere to even go with that, even though there's a bunch of easy ways to go from there.
Your heart's beating like a fucked clock, so it's a little hard to make out what she says, seems fairly non-descript. There's no flow to how you talk at all, these pregnant nervous pauses, followed by:
"What are you listening to?"
Again, that's not where things would organically go. It sounds like clutching at straws in a vain attempt to keep the conversation going, which comes off weird again, as that's what you saying that after an awkward pause sub communicates. Like Dan said, if you were being genuine and that was something you gave a fuck about it wouldn't have dithered out so awkwardly and you'd probably have a place to take that thread organically. But you didn't so it came off weird.
At this point, if I were this girl, this whole thing would just seem weird and very uncomfortable. You're clearly trying really hard to keep her there with no clear reason at all, aside from the fact you're awkwardly hitting on her. Another hard to make out response, another awkward silence and he excuses herself.
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I realise now that the front stop is inappropriate, but I had watched many videos from the London coaches who emphasise the front stop. The reason I was on my bike was because I cycle a lot and often in my semi rural area.
Putting my hand out was simply something I watched in a video, maybe it wasn't appropriate to the situation, I don't know.
As for being bigger and physically stronger, well, I've often been told women like taller guys. And even if they didn't, I can't exactly shrink myself down before I approach them, can I.
I hesitated and stuttered as I delivered my opener, because it felt like a tense situation and I got really nervous. I really felt the pressure since we were face to face and I felt a responsibility to keep the conversation going.
It's true, my earlier videos were tainted by incel ideology and I was feeling somewhat hopeless when I made them so there were some undertones of "proving a point" so to speak. But in general I struggle with how to hold a conversation with a complete stranger I know nothing about whom I only approached because I found them attractive.
Yes, in general, this interaction was a disaster and it was one of my better ones, if you can believe that! But that was the reason that I made these videos, after all, to show people "where I am" so to speak, without having to write my observations up on forums in a lengthy manner.
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Now...
You can break this down like in the above, mistake by mistake, but that isn't the root of your problem. The key thing throughout that entire interaction is that you're incongruent and you don't have good social acuity. Filming yourself doing day game is a bad way to solve that, it just won't help.
Imagine if tomorrow I put you in a ring to fight an experienced boxer. Then afterwards you and some boxing experts watch it, and they break down everything you did wrong. Does that mean you can hop in the ring in a few days and fight with a different experienced boxer and do alright? Obviously not. Because the next time you're facing a different set of problems, happening in a different way in real-time. You need to work on generalised skills like balance, timing, and distance.
Learning to read and empathise with people in social interactions is the exact same deal. It's a skill you learn, like balance. It's something you need in a generalised sense before you can apply it specifically, and you learn it from experience, not from watching tapes of yourself.
If you won't accept the ethical argument for not filming your interactions bear the above in mind. Also bear in mind that regardless of the law people generally don't like being spontaneously filmed without consent, and it will also make people suspicious of exactly what you're up to and why you're really talking to them. So not only will it not help address the real problem, it'll start all your interactions on a bad foot
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I get what you are saying, I need to work on general social skills. If I were 18, maybe I would have given it a try that way, but I am 30. My alternative to using the GoPro are camera glasses, which are available cheaply on eBay.
You've got strong objections to filming, but I think it's a really useful tool. It makes the situations I bring to life "real", tangible, rather than just a bunch of text on a screen.
It is true what you say about suspicion. I am approached by a POLICE OFFICER in one of my later videos. He tries to get me to stop filming and suggests speed dating instead. He said he "doesn't want to see me around town again".
I think that concludes my series, tbh.
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You also need to learn to relax, and daygame is too weird of a social situation to be able to do that. You need to learn to socialise with people in general and to handle less intense social interactions. Try going to social events or meetups. There you can meet people in a friendly, low-pressure way and work on your acuity. If you want to do game take it down to the easiest way and baby step your way up. Ask for directions and try to keep a conversation going. Spark up friendly, platonic conversations when you see incidental chances for them out and about. Take the pressure off and learn to practice on just reading people right.
To get more congruent you need to get your mind straight about this situation. You said "seduction" is worse than "filming people". You need to look at your ground assumptions about that, about women and about yourself very seriously, because from what I've seen it's pretty skewed. And if you're involved with incel communities in any way don't be. They have deeply fucked up and distorted views of society, sexuality and especially women, and they have nothing to offer you. They're far, far worse than useless.
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I need to relax, yeah, day game makes me hella nervous.
I think you've given me a reason to take the pressure off myself and just go down the platonic conversation route. This would severely limit the amount of approach opportunities though. I have watched a lot of daygame "propaganda" videos that tell me that it is "my fault" if I am not getting laid or a girlfriend because I simply haven't put the effort in and gone out and hustled enough. Now, I am seeing, that is a false lie, but I've had to put a lot of work in to find that out.
"social events or meetups."
Long term unemployed, no social circle. Not gonna happen, unfortunately.
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You said "seduction" is worse than "filming people". You need to look at your ground assumptions about that, about women and about yourself very seriously, because from what I've seen it's pretty skewed.
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I don't think what I've said is skewed at all. Seduction is a form of manipulation. Going up and filming a candid interaction is not. It's pretty clear to me that seduction is more morally questionable.
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And if you're involved with incel communities in any way don't be. They have deeply fucked up and distorted views of society, sexuality and especially women, and they have nothing to offer you. They're far, far worse than useless.
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I've been trying to leave the incel community. But when you've made it to 30 without having sex with anything other than prostitutes, it's tricky to leave because I simply can't relate to "normal" people, at all.
I've been banned from many forums. It is likely I will be banned from this one as well, at some point. Where does that leave me to go for human interaction? The incel community, again.
If nothing else, these videos are proof that I have tried my utmost at the level of social skill that I have available to me. In my circumstances the opportunities to better those skills are nearly non existent. These videos are my legacy at trying to "live a life" so to speak.
Despite us disagreeing, I appreciate your dialogue, Stein. It's a shame that we don't see eye to eye on videos and I am not the only one doing it out on YouTube.
Search YouTube for "daygame infield" and you'll see what I mean. I am just trying to catalog my experiences, not even make profit from it.