Universally unattractive guys
 

Hi all,

This thread addresses guys who approach loads (like 1000 sets or more a year) and get basically nowhere. No action, no dates, or sometimes even no contact details (though the 3 of these have fundamentally different reasons why). In the realms of cold approach, most guys start to see results steadily improve on a month by month basis. Tom Torero claimed in his "Beginners Guide to DayGame" that it take around 2 years to get consistent action.

A lot of pickup advice out there has focused on "techniques" whilst having a socially appealing lifestyle yet doing both cold and warm approaches. However, a lot of it fails to address a big thing - the guys out there, who are not considered "normal." Autism, chronically anxious guys, low social awareness, men who cannot make friends etc. You only have to look at cases like First Person Approacher and Dan Cilley who have published their persistently low par results, to see that guys like that need long term coaching.

In fact, the best advice I've lately seen is removing eccentric traits, rather than focusing on techniques. In many ways, game is more about removing things you do wrong, than getting things right.

Thoughts?

Z

Was listening a talk by Dr Jordan Peterson today and when responding to someone in the audience he was like..

".....if every woman you approach is rejecting you, it's NOT THE WOMEN"

Also, the likes of first person approacher are beyond help.

Same and a few days ago. One of them inspired me to clean my room up to tidy my mind (whether it works is another matter).


A little gem I came across is that James Tusk coached him for 2 hours. Heck if I find the link to Tusk's response to FPA's media attention then I'll link it here. Evidently FPA either didn't take much on board, couldn't be bothered to get more due to his disinterest in changing, or both.

Guys like FPA can change, but being an incel is comfortable and massages their egos. Thus, they are happier to accept their current perception, rather than actually working hard to alter their reality. Guys in severe scarcity who have been like that for a long time, need long term help and effort, assuming their underlying condition isn't totally incurable (and FPA was more intelligent than some would give him credit for).

It helps, sure. Ever tried working at a cluttered desk compared to how it felt when you tidied it and cleared all the shit away? Big difference.

Being precise in my speech and walking/standing straight/confident are the two rules that are always at the forefront of my mind.

I'm going to pre-order the sequel.


I watched a bit of that video didn't bother finishing it. Tusk, whilst a coach, is also a salesman. He was perhaps trying to help a guy he knew deep down was almost certainly beyond help, but he also wasn't going to turn away a fee of perhaps something like 500 quid minimum, no matter how fucked the guy was. Either that or Tusk isn't as clever as he portrays himself (that is, if he genuinely believed FPA was workable).

Yeah the non-verbals are key. I'm still lacking in these somewhat and need reminders by wings/coaches periodically. I can't help but feel like having a more organised living space would help with that somehow. That reminds me; my WFH study is currently in disarray.

Tusk charges exorbitant amounts of money whilst not quite delivering the value he promises. His boot camps are in excess of £3000 and last around 4 days (20 hours coaching). Imagine working out for 5 hours a day 4 days in a row. Would the gains be worth the intense effort instead of spreading it out over a longer period of time? I think not, and the same can be applied to pickup coaching. Alex's 4 week natural is a better example by contrast (even though he's ex-RSD).

Seeing some of Tusk's coaching videos as well, it felt like he wasn't giving ideal advice. I remember this Australian doctor who was really high energy, but I don't recall them actually trying to slow him down much; they mostly just told him to approach more.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...89/629/56e.jpg


Peace,

kowalski

To be fair that looks like quite a few years ago, as in, before he released 12 rules.

In his recent streams his room is clean, so he must have finally read the book.

Not to mention the all beef and pond water diet and the trip to Russia to put his brain in a vat. That'll have set his house in order almost enough to start criticising the world.

Re the James Tusk thing it's kind of a general issue with the bootcamp model in general. There's no way to fix deep ingrained social issues in the space of a weekend. Regardless of how good the advice is or isn't.

In terms of people like first person approacher, they have much deeper issues than not being able to get laid, and they're better handled by mental health professionals who are held to some form of professional standard, unlike pickup coaches.

What on earth does his dietary preferences have to do with it?

Signs of dishonest and pseudoscientific tendencies. He basically claimed that eating only meat cured him of all his problems and that he was healthy and happy... meanwhile he was jacked up on some pretty heavy farma, crying all the time and eventually decided to temporarily kill himself.

And now he’s immediately back selling the same product without publicly addressing these things appropriately.


Peace,

kowalski

Indeed. Someone like FPA could clearly be fixed by both therapy and then some coaching to be more "normal" and adjusted. Definitely no quick fix though. Depression/anxiety (well, any mental health issues) are outright the most unattractive traits that a guy can have, especially if issues actually arise from scarcity of women in the first place. I had a wingman who confessed that he only got his first sexy time after 5 years of counselling (then some game). Guys who get into game late in life, have the hardest time.

Easy test to see if someone has game or not (when women are removed from the formula), is to see how reactive they are to adverse situations. It's amusing when you have folks come here preaching the outright gospel of Mystery Method and then lash out whenever they're criticised.

There's a difference in dishonesty and believing that a diet worked for you.

You might consider the fact he was hooked on benzos dishonest but that dishonesty was mostly to himself. When you have an addiction, you don't usually realise it until it comes to the point you're totally fucked, have no choice but to face it, or indeed when/or you get better and reflect on that period.

Furthermore, it's notable how his work was continuing help others the whole time, whilst he could barely help himself.

He addressed it in an hour long discussion with his daughter back around late summer time where the whole thing was thoroughly unpacked.

What would you consider appropriate?

I foresee another appearance on Joe Rogan and I can't think of a bigger platform from which to properly address it.

If eating only meat cured him of all his ailments why was he taking prescription drugs and making terrible decisions that left him in a coma? Because he wasn't cured of everything, because it was a lie.

I watched that and he didn't. It was bullshit. He didn't say "hey, sorry, I'm a hypocrite." And if he wants to save face "my advice is legit, as you can see I wasn't living what I preached and I nearly killed myself, I should have been following my own rules, here's how this wouldn't have happened to me if I had been doing that..."

Or even better "truth is those who have most significantly changed the world for the better probably didn't have a perfectly orderly home and personal relationships, that's just not how that works, they're too busy for that... and that shit about saying hello to a cat, that was my depression talking that's not good advice for anyone that was something specific to me and my fucked up mental state, have you ever tried greeting a strange cat? It's not really a thing they are so skittish you'd have to be there for hours, that's crazy, why did anyone buy that book" etc.

You sound like the Mormons in South park when they defend Joseph Smith over the missing pages. Or Muslims when they defend Mo over not punishing Aisha for being in another man's wagon. Only true believers eat up the trashy excuses their prophets dish out to cover over their inconsistencies.


Peace,

kowalski

Which wouldn't be a problem, except a large part of his advice directly tells other not to do that.

He even says he recovered from his obvious androgenic alopecia because of his diet. That's not possible. He had a hair transplant and he at least uses something like finasteride to maintain it.


Peace,

kowalski

He started using those drugs to help deal with the stress and anxiety of his wife's cancer diagnosis, and ended up hooked. If you decide not to believe that, cool bro.

It's a perfectly valid point that he was giving out advice and helping people with their own crumbling existences, whilst his own world was falling down around him. That's quite a common occurrence; people being able to help other fuckers sort their lives out whilst at the same time can't do it for themselves.

At this point I'm actually going to be very surprised if he doesn't address it properly in the foreword or introduction to the upcoming book. I think there would be no better way he could possibly do so.

Ok, bucko.

"Rule 8. Tell the truth... or at least don't lie." Jordan Peterson
"The carnivore diet reversed my androgenic alopecia" Jordan Peterson

Which one of these do you not understand? How is it that you follow Jordan Peterson’s incredibly complex arguments yet this is beyond your comprehension?


Peace,

kowalski

Do you dispute his daughters insistence that the carnivore diet contributed to healing the 30 or so quite serious symptoms related to her autoimmune disease?

As for any hypocritical accusations that can perhaps rightfully be thrown his way, they don't really matter at present in my opinion, because..

So go ahead and wait till his book is published and if in the foreword or introduction he doesn't address his lie about his hair loss, then you accept that he's a hypocrite. lol

That's a logical fallacy.

This is the definition of hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

This is not the definition of hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings and does not go on to address it in the foreword or introduction of their next book.

You added an extra condition which does not form part of the definition. This is commonly known as the no true Scotsman fallacy.

So you can fuck right off with that retarded shit.

He is a hypocrite, as I have demonstrated, and your fallacious argument for not accepting this is utterly irrelevant to the fact. Blue is blue, call it red if you want but you'll come into problems pretty quick living like that.

The reality is not that this doesn't matter in your opinion, rather that your opinion doesn't matter in this.


Peace,

kowalski

I accept his failings because I know what it's like to be addicted to a problem substance. He fucked up, he might have lied, he may have been contradictory to his teachings. I accept that.

He hasn't put out much work since before that period of his life. In fact I only became a fan during it (although I wasn't aware at the time), and my hope is that his future work reflects these failings.

I think he's more than capable of that.

I'm half-tempted to change the title of the thread from "Universally Unattractive Guys" to "Why Jordan Peterson is a Hypocrite" but I'll refrain.

Too bad, I've been binging on his videos as of late. Though more recently on theory of mind rather than gender dynamics.

Counselling works too.

Wonder what Jordan says to his clients who are struggling with women though.

Yes, especially higher value social circles. When I think of a high value social circle though, I don't necessarily mean one where there are loads of girls in it, but at a minimum guys who are helpful with jobs & realistic ambitions, and not deadbeat losers. Time after time, the guys who struggle the most I've noted, tend to hang out with the same kinds of guys rather than reaching out for help. They then wonder why they're depressed & feeling lonely much of the time.

Though, admittedly these guys are in a rut and so have to make the effort to break thru first, which ain't easy when they don't know where to start.

Z

I'm tempted to take a boot camp with a coach myself once the risk of getting fined/whatever for covid disappears (I hardly care at all about the disease itself). However, I would take one with the expectation that it would not change a lot, but more as an experience to add to my life, and as a minor enhancement to skill.

Assuming that is, you're relying on conversation. In nightclubs and where alcohol is often involved, it's more about appearance/style and vibe lol


With regards to a skill you wanna improve, yup. I do wonder about having one social circle for game, and another for other stuff, like music, where it doesn't matter who you hang with (even if half of them were social outcasts or losers, yet are awesome musicians).

Z

There was a TV programme about such universally unattractive guys way back in 2006. It was called Seduction School and featured the pick up artist training group Charisma Arts. Back in April 2007 someone post me this video on a none pua forum just a community forum called themoononline | Home after I complained about my lack of success with women: https://youtu.be/a51DipqHFeo

Curiously they charge about £2000 for a 2 day "camp" :

https://www.charismaarts.com/convers...versation-camp

Given my argument about "boot camps" where if you want to get good at something it takes ~21 days to learn a new habit, it's probably a waste of money.

I totally agree that Charisma Arts are a total rip off. And they dont even have female instructors either as I think you can learn far more from female instructors. You are also not going to be able to learn that much in just two days of training. As I think that it takes at least a few weeks to get good with women. You would be far better off watching a couple of dozens YouTube pick up example videos than enrolling on a bootcamp.

long term coaching is not practical. most guys who enter the pick up scene usually do so later in life, after failing at being themselves. another thing is, the older you are, the harder it is for you to change. so if youre 30, it's pretty much too late for most. your reproductive years are also very limited, so by the time you figure it all out, you're already out of the dating market. if you look at the vast majority of couples, their age is actually similar. so let's say the 30yr old pua has long term coaching. he finally figures it out by 40. by this time, he doesnt have much to choose from. much like the guy who enters a bufet at 1:30pm

i actually know a guy who only befriends men from self help groups such as autism. he goes to college, works out at a gym, and works at amazon, but has 0 friends from none.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/gag.draft.i...965d36580b.jpg