Depression
 

How prevalent is depression in the seduction community, do you think?

It’s obvious what the driving factors are likely to be in anyone with social problems that induce loneliness or frustration in this area of life. For me, I’ve had mood problems on and off for years. The catalyst is usually stress, such as particularly busy business times, or attempts at personal change.

The medical community is a little frustrating here. The accepted theory, if you can call it that, is one of chemical brain imbalance treated by drugs. Don’t get me wrong, if you’re in a deep hole and have to get out, take the drugs. I’ve resisted thus far although I’ve nearly gone down that route a couple of times in the last year or so.

Those of you who have had difficulty with this will implicitly understand what it can do to you mentally, physically and emotionally, but it’s a difficult thing to describe to others. No amount of “just snap out of it” type advice, will work.

If you’re reading this and have this problem, sort out your nutrition, get hydrated, get to bed early, get outside for an hour a day at least, lower stressors in your life…these little things can all add up. I don’t have all the answers, but these things alone have helped me thus far.

PS

I'm not that sure whether I believe that the anti-depressants work. I think it's all a scam in the pharmaceutical industry, that probably kinda works with the placebo affect. If somebody has a real deep seated issue, I don't think any drug can just magically make it go away.

In my past, I have found that the biggest reason I feel sad and depressed is because I feel like I have nobody to talk to, or hang out with, and just generally feel lonely in the world. It is these days, when I had nobody to talk to or hang with, that I felt like I really was "depressed", even though nothing was REALLY wrong in my life.

But generally, I have found the answer to be to go out more, do more things with friends, and just try to understand that shit happens in life, and you can either deal with it and move on, or sit and worry about it constantly.

An interesting post :)

Telling someone with depression to snap out of it is like telling someone in a wheelchair to just get up and walk. There is a physical, and physiological reason, why the person is depressed, and snapping out of it is simply not an option.

I have cyclothymia - a mild form of bipolar disorder. I won't say "suffer from" because, when I do have an episode, there's a 50/50 chance it'll be fucking amazing - manic episodes, however mild, are the most amazing feeling in the world, akin to MDMA (see below). However, with the smooth inevitably comes the rough, and at times it's been very, very rough. For a while, at university, I became so convinced I was a hopeless waste of space that I was actually going to end up a pitiful heroin addict. This seemed very probable to me.

Your advice to anyone suffering from depression is definitely valid. I found that my mood improved no end by going for a walk, playing the piano or going to see friends. My milder episodes of depression could even be helped by doing my weekly big-shop. I can't say diet really helped, and exercise (by which I mean the gym) just made it worse. But hey, each to their own.

But (and this is a big but), there comes out of this a Catch 22. And that is that, during moderate to severe depression, even doing those things you've talked about becomes unbearable. You feel absolutey, completely, hopelessly, wretched, and even going outside seems like an impossible task. Don't get me wrong, you know full well that it is possible, but you can't think of anything worse than doing it. And behind these problems is the fact that you are a cunt. You will never be loved, you will never be happy, and you will be lonely, disconnected and miserable whatever you do. And no-one will care because you're such a cunt. Can you imagine feeling like that? Having what feels like an inevitable realisation that these things are true? Nothing you do can stop this kind of depression - I've had it, in this severity, three times in the past, each for a couple of months, and it's awful - easily the darkest days of my life.

And now, children, a lesson in neurophysiology. Clinical Depression is a mood disorder caused by a decrease in central levels of serotonin over the course of several weeks, many months or even years. Serotonergic neurones are found, as we might expect, mainly in areas of the brain responsible for mood, appetite, motivation, empathy and alertness. They also modulate the response of dopamine, which humans tend to like very much. It's the main point of neurological manipulation when you take cocaine or do exercise (yes, exercise is almost as addictive as cocaine). So yes, Postscript, clinical depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain (sort of), and DJ, if it is caused by a lack of a certain neurotransmitter (ie serotonin), drugs will put it right.

MDMA, for instance, works wonders on the human brain. Anyone who doesn't believe manipulation of serotonin has any effect on a person should try some and then get back to me. More mild examples that cause an increase of serotonin in the CSF include paroxetine (good stuff - we used it for my dissertation) and cipralex. They simply function by either pretending to be serotonin, or preventing serotonin being taken back up into nerve cells (or both in the case of MDMA).

smoking leads to depression I'm on day 3 clean and i tell you wat I'm pretty depressed but I know I'll come out feeling much happier.

Thanks for your honesty Blanca, it's a big and difficult topic to talk about. I tried to be respectful of the accepted view on brain chemistry and drugs, but I'm still cynical about it. There are people out there who have benefited greatly, but also a lot of stories of low efficacy and constant pill popping and other effects, one of which in my family. From a diet and exercise point of view, it's the finer points and a lot of the refinements are counter intuitive. For example, more meat and unprocessed clean saturated fat can help, contrary to normal dietary advice. Good quality fish oil high in EPA/DHA can help. Cutting out all grains (bread/pasta/rice) can help. Cutting out all the obvious crap and stimulants can help. Obviously plenty of veg and seasonal fruit. On exercise, I agree this can make it worse, in my experience, much worse. I'd just advocate getting outside and walking in the fresh air, getting in what little vitamin D from the sun that we can get in this country. Hitting the weights and treadmill could be a big mistake I couldn't agree more, depends on the person.

PS

I don't disagree that pharmaceuticals cannot help temporarily, but I do think it is not a permanent treatment. I think the deep seated issue would just come back to haunt said person in the future, in some way shape or form. All my non-professional opinion of course.

I sometimes notice that our reward system with respect to dopamine is quite screwed in the western world anyways, with everybody hyped up on coca cola, mcdonalds and processed foods.

I think a depressed person just having somebody to listen to can be a great help. Someone that actually cares, rather than telling them to just "be happy". Of course, admitting you are depressed in the first place is an achievement in itself. (Not directed at any poster, just in general).

Severe Depression absolutly destroys you inside. I couldnt even get off the sofa to empty the dishwasher it was an absolutly impossible task, so you sit there and ruminate about the things that you are obsessive over-- hurting you inside over and over again which spirals you further and further down.
Looking back my Severely Depressed episode lasted 6 months, every minute of every hour of every day was absolute hell on earth, i sobbed 20 times a day.
I was scoring maxium marks on the GPs depression scale.

Like you say if you somehow manage to actually do somthing, go out, speak to a friend on the phone, visit family--afterwards you feel better, but the ability to actually get up and do that yourself is impossible.
anyone that thinks they can 'just pull themselves together' has no concept of SEVERE depression.
I actually realised what being mentally ill was -- i didnt trust myself, how i felt or decisions i made anymore because i was up and down up and down.

My best friend would ring me everyday to see how i was and i would give him different answers about the same thing everyday--i realised that if you asked me the same question 20 minutes apart about everything that had happened.
I would give you a firmly believed DIFFERENT answer.

I also understood how commiting suicide could actually seem like a totally logical sane normal choice-- your ability to reason and use logic is totally fucked when severely depressed.

For me Anti Depressants where probably my savior -- i bounced around on some different ones and settled on Citalopram. Immediately i felt like the ups and downs got their peaks taken off and levelled slightly-- i actaully WANTED to go out and do things-- which also made me feel better.

They didnt stop me feeling depressed but they took the edge off it- i still had massive wobbles and i carefully had to control my thought processes, keep myself out of situations i knew would make me 'wobble'
i developed some affirmations i would say to myself when i wobbled bit like self hypnosis.

So here the happy ending bit...you ready?

no, no happy ending -- i am a hell of a lot better 2 years down the line, i still take citalopram although i am ready to wean myself off it as i have put many things in place with my life that will help me keep my head above water.
i still get the odd Wobble now and again but i control it well.

Things that helped my from a nutrient/drug point of view

Citalopram -- huge difference
Modafinil -- accidental discovery totally feel awesome on these, knock on effects seem to last for days
High potency fish oils
High Potency Vitamin D
i also drop the odd 5-HTP - has a very calming effect.

personally i developed a great deal of caring and compassion for others in this situation, you can truly never understand it unless youve been there.

Ive been going through this a little this year - thankfully now over the worst.
I think the most terrible part of it is the feeling of pure alone, that you can be surrounded by anyone/doing anything and yet somehow you feel totally disconnected and remote.
Genuinely feels as if there is no future and things will never improve,
a feeling I would never wish on anybody

I guess before I felt it for myself I was someone who to a degree was of the attitude of 'just get over' but like many things in life, we have to see for ourselves before understanding is possible.
Just another reminder in the long journey to not judge and empathise because we never know what the next guy/girl on the street is going through...

Educate me? Is this to do with genes? For example: Same event happening to two different guys. But two different reactions. 1) First guy got affected more. Got depressed. Felt that this life wasnt worth living for. Depressed. Suicidal. Started drinking. Started taking drugs. Got even more depressed. Started on anti-depressants. It was a vicious cycle. 2) Second guy got affected too. Sad. Depressed. Decided to bury himself with other things to keep him busy. Moments of Sadness. But moved on with his life. I know it is a simple analogy and possibly biased but I always wonder whether gene makeup has anything to do with how one responds to unfortunate events.

It's an interesting point, same stimulus, two men, why does one respond differently to the other? What's the earlier cause and effect going on? The first half hour or so of the 3rd Zeitgeist movie ("Zeitgeist: moving forward") linked below, gives a great description of the fallacy of genetics as a possible solution but talks about the related idea of pre-disposition. I don't like to make excuses that absolve anyone of responsibility, but it seems somewhat credible that it could stack the odds a little against you when forks in the road appear in front of you in life.

YouTube - ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD | OFFICIAL RELEASE | 2011

PS

It has something to do with genetics - certain people are pre-disposed to suffering from depression whilst others are not. Like you said, Legend, some people would be able to move on with their lives whereas others would not. My dad, for instance, displays classic symptoms of cyclothymia (although he'd never admit it) so I can have a pretty safe guess where I've got it from.

If you look at it from a physiological perspective, the genetics argument would appear to make sense. DNA/mRNA is directly responsible for producing proteins that either create serotonin or are responsible for its detection and uptake - having a faulty gene for one of the serotonin receptors would result in a faulty receptor and thus decreased sensitivity to serotonin. Having a faulty gene for the production of whatever enzyme it is that makes serotonin from serotonin-phosphate (5-HT from 5-HTP) would certainly have an effect. Since DNA is inherited from parents, this argument would appear to be valid, and it is backed up by good evidence.

There are other factors though - stress has been correctly pointed out as one. Stress is a vicious circle - depression leads to stress leads to depression. Chicken and egg. I'd have to root around some papers to see the proposed mechanism, but we touched on in it in a couple of lectures.

This is precisely the problem facing the medical sector at the moment. The number of people complaining of depressive illness in the last 10 years has gone up something like 300%. They can't all have depression, but so far there is no definitive way to tell if someone has a neurological disorder. Even if you did a spinal tap and showed someone's central serotonin levels were a little low is inconclusive evidence - serotonin levels naturally fluctuate to some extent, and an abnormally low reading could be anomalous.

A good way to tell if someone really is suffering from the condition is something called a Beck Depression Inventory. Google it. People who are fine score under 10. People who are just a bit sad tend to score 10-20. Those with a serious illness rarely score below 30 and those above 40 are a suicide risk. At my worst I scored a 38 and at my best a 0. My dissertation was, in a very contrived way, looking at ways of actually clinically diagnosing depression. We had a look at how taste changes when serotonin is manipulated, but this stuff is in its very early stages. Even if it eventually works (which I'm skeptical about) it'll be decades before there's a conclusive test for depression.

Having suffered from depression on-off through the last couple of years I can also confirm this is a problem for many, since several of my friends have suffered depression too. There is a lot of hullaballo, since, yes, doctors are very quick to brand a case as depression and stick you on a years prescritption to citalopram or whatever. In my own experience, it seems like a warp in perception that comes from an underlying low mood, which therein influences your thinking. Like that shit feeling after a really hard night out, or the comedown, for those who use any kind of drug. One day I would think XYZ about a situation or life as a whole, and it would make me sink further and further down inside until I was feeling almost broken. Then my mood would change, and I'd be like 'why the fuck was THAT bothering me'? It really is the biggest anti-inner game condition you can find, and it's important to deal with it and understand it however you can.

Some of the things that I have found worked for me, have been reading philosophies, which can indeed make me feel better when the source is some kinf of 'spiritual' problem or whatever. But I have found myself naturally slumping back down for little to no reason. Citalopram certainly works and I believe it has been well verified to be more than a placebo. The same they say, with St. Johns Wort. My only problem is it comes and goes, so it's hard to be sure what's fixing it.

I would argue, from personal experience, that it's very important to keep a pleasant environment around you, and often, like a lot of PUAs say about girls, I find it's better to change my feelings, now my mind, which comes through doing things I enjoy as well as forcing myself to do the things I want to do that scare me. That's the basis behind CBT. I've recently tried a bit of meditation, which has variable effects for me, but it's been very much verified scientifically. A large amount of it is a kind of self acceptance too, like when you acknowledge you aren't feeling that great, and you accept it and work with it, but not submit to it, you lose a lot of the 'negative' tension it creates.

For the first time in my life, I'm currently going through a bout of depression.

Similar to what Blanca said, my misses has bi-polar tendencies (she was diagnosed with it a number of years ago), and from speaking with her it seems like I might be a bit like that myself. I constantly swing between manic highs and crushing lows. Currently, getting the energy to get out of bed in the morning is nearly impossible, and if it wasn't for the fact that I gig most evenings, I probably wouldn't get out of it at all.

I've lost interest in most of my hobbies (you may notice I've become a lot less active on here as of late), can't be arsed to go to the gym, lost my appetite, have erratic sleeping patterns, I find making simple decisions a chore and a consistent feeling of glumness / doom-and-gloom.

That's during the day at least. When the evening comes, I seem to explode into this crazed fun-fiend with a "fuck everything" attitude. I know the alcohol is helping either, but it at least makes the nights more barable.

I think for some people, the depression is routed in a cause. Fortunately I know what mine is. I left my last job a few months ago, and in the past never had an issue walking into another one as I have a pretty impressive CV, but it's been like 3/4 months now, and still nothing. Money is as good as dried out and it's getting me down. I know that as / when I get something I'll perk up (at least I hope so), but ironically this state of depression is making me less and less enthusiastic about getting up and finding something. It's an exacerbating spiral and I can completely understand how it completely ruins some peoples lives.

Like I said, I've had a lot of advice from some people who have been through what I'm going through (mainly, don't fight it, let it do it's thing, ride it, then work with it to get past it), and I'm sure I'll bounce back soon enough. It's SO unlike me though to be like this... I want my energy back!

I scored 25?

You can't just look at a single neurotransmitter as an indication of a persons state of mind, I read a interesting book recently called the edge effect, it talked a lot about the balance between dopamine, acetlycholine, gaba as well as seratonin.

Interesting since I scored high on having a dopamine and acetlycholine abundance more so than seratonin and ive never felt better in my life.

Well at this point we're getting away from my area of knowledge (the neurophysiological causes of depressive illness) and into clinical psychology and diagnosis. Therefore I can only make an educated speculation but I'll give it a go.

I believe part of the problem lies in thinking of depression as something you either have or haven't got. I believe it is more of a spectrum disorder like Autism. Let me explain.

Broadly speaking, a depressed state is caused by a decrease in the action of serotonin in the central nervous system for whatever reason. In other words, just feeling a little bit sad can be attributed to this - in other words if you're feeling a bit down in the dumps one day, you can be described as being depressed. Your mood and mental functions are depressed due to (among other things) a decrease in the action of serotonin.

Now imagine the more extreme version. You're really really sad, struggling to think of anything positive etc. I believe that this can be put on the same scale as the "feeling a bit sad" state - this is sadness turned up to 11, and is caused by a major lack of serotonin and/or its actions. I mentioned MDMA before, and it can serve as an example here. During a comedown, when central serotonin is depleted, you feel like shit. Not quite as bad as during major depression, but along similar lines. On the other hand, during the come-up, when you're full of it, you feel amazing. Manic.

What I'm trying to say (in an admittedly roundabout way) is that I think of mood as a scale from, say, -10 to 10. 10 being bouncing off the walls manic and -10 being suicidal. Everybody has the capability to feel 10 or -10 and everything in-between (because in theory everyone can have loads of serotonin or none), but some are pre-disposed to it, and some are more at risk of it from risk factors like stress, but most people range from, say, -5 to 5 during their life. People who "suffer from depression" in a clinical sense just feel abnormally depressed more of the time and more easily.

Anywho, on to your question which was how to test effectively for depression (if we take depression to mean feeling sad an abnormally large amount). Firstly, the benefit of such a test would have to be to recognise those feeling sad enough for it to impact significantly on their lives. Thus, I believe the Beck Inventory is sufficient - anyone who is depressed enough to have it actually affect their life will score highly, anyone who's a bit sad will score low.

Another thing to do (although it would be impractical) is to do a spinal tap and measure the amount of serotonin in the Cerebro Spinal Fluid (the fluid that bathes the brain and spinal cord). This would give a good indication of whether a person's serotonin levels were too low compared to a statistically determined mean. However, limiting serotonin's actions (and thus causing depression) can be done in other ways that this investigation would not allow for. For instance, overactive reuptake channels that take serotonin back into nerve cells, overactive action from enzymes that break serotonin down, lack of serotonin receptors on the synapse.

My point is, you can measure serotonin levels and enzyme activity until you're blue in the face, but the best way to tell if someone has a problem with depression is to do a behavioural test because depression, if it is bad enough, is a behavioural illness.

Thanks for the post. I've been battling depression most of my life. I quit my job late last year as I wanted to put all my efforts into dealing with the situation once and for all. Depression has left me socially isolated to a great extent which makes it really hard for me to connect with just about anybody, let alone women. Example: in three years of drinking at my local I still don't really know anybody all that well; in 3 months my brother was on first name terms with just about everybody there and banged the landlady. (Then he stopped going because she turned out to be one of those emotionally unstable freakazoids.)

In recent years things have slowly started to turn around. I have some good, close friends now, although I can't see them very regularly which means I tend to go out by myself more often than not. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to try an establish a social network where I could actually go out regular, approach women but also talk about pick up and what it means to people and what works/doesn't work etc.

I was on citalopram for about 4 months but I junked it as I felt it wasn't helping me. If only the powers that be threw as much resources into mental health as physical the world would be a happier place. My doctor has been falling over himself to check a blip in my bloodwork that he says is almost certainly nothing, yet I am now into week 16 of waiting to get involved in my second round of CBT (the first being finished up when the money ran out, just when I was starting to make real progress).

Maybe I could try harder but nobody could accuse me of not trying at all. It's always difficult to stick something out when positive results are slow to come by.

But depression cant just exist without reason can it,

my depression was due to my lack of social life/ bullying in the past
it still exists but i know once i have a social life it will go away

other possibilites could include, bereavement, broken relationships, financial wories etc but ive never heard of depression without reeason

even tyler durden said that getting guys laid would cure alot of that mental shit, i believe him because afterall happiness does just boil down to spreading your genes, your friends, family, career is there to do so. I guess not by personal choice but by natural choice

There is a reason for everything.

Wether its an event in somones life that the subconscious interprets by adjusting your serotoni levels - for example
or wether its your genetic makeup
or wether its some internal damage

you get my point

wow, im really glad this topic is being discussed. Kind of a murky topic in the community that wishy washy game advice might not clear up, or might i dont know.

My dad has it and his mum had it. So ive seen the effects and how frustrating it is.
I feel like it would b easy for me to blame stuff on depression for myself when i could just be feeling a bit crap sometimes which for me is probably the case.

I definitely used to subconciously cut my self off from social groups and never understood why right from being a kid but i blame that on other stuff which i wont go into. I like to think ive got over this problem now anyway but if i do or did have depression i certainly wouldnt like it to be diagnosed with it. so im just gunna keep on the way am going.

i wonder if depression is medical or can be treated with more self belief???

apparently bi - polar runs in our family, my nan is an up & down cook... my ma is the same... my sister is moody as fuck

i do get ratty but most of the time im happy & love my life... is that coz i did somethin about it where they never...

is depression your own hole that you either climb from ... or dwell.

i was depressed last year, i lost everythin from my company, home, gf, pride THE LOT... as i was sat there going from the best apartment block in liverpool to a crummy bedsit in the arse end of liverpool within months.

i wondered... am i gonna let this drag me down!! and i never... i got a job back in sales, my old company, top sales in the first week .. got a nice new pad... got my shit together, and im glad it happened, as i realised im not bound by what i have.... im not what i do

im me! and im in control of everythin i do.

that was an important lesson, and whilst it cost me alot of time & heartache... worth every single molecule.

See, there is a huge disconnect in perception here.

Yourself and Phil have reacted to difficulties in life, by externalising them. Somehow, some people when they have had enough of suffering whether it takes days, weeks or months, have an innate ability to push negativity out of themselves and externalise their problems. No doubt you would argue that this is simply a choice, a personal assertion that you take control of yourself and move on.

Others however tend to internalise their problems, when a new problem arises, it becomes more evidence of what they thought about themselves to begin with, and down the spiral goes. They take the blame for the event personally, as opposed to placing the blame upon the event and then changing events. Someone like this will look at the notion of asserting change, and whilst they're not thick and can understand it logically, somehow it doesn't...fit. Of course, as always with the brain, the more you practice something the more efficient you get at it, regardless of whether it's healthy or not.

This makes it difficult for the latter group to model the former group and work out how to pull themselves out of it from what they observe.

I suppose the difference between the two groups is a fundamental sense of identity and self esteem. On Deangelo's Deep Inner Game DVD's they talk about some people having a porous personal boundary, where events are allowed into them to fuck with their reality freely. Whereas more stable people tend to be able to choose what they let in, they know who they are and can usually reject a problem. The same product implied that the only way to build this was to start investing in yourself more, to start building self esteem and identity with one little decision at a time, little steps of courage leading towards a greater sense of self image and esteem to stabilise the foundation of the problem.

PS

actually mate, i take responsibility for any problems... and things outside of my control i just move on.

i dont think everyone should follow my lead coz i dont think its that easy for most... and where i was WASNT NICE

and its only my ability to sell, i earned enough money to become active in life and work myself to freedom.

it wasnt just my power of self it was my ability to financially stabilize myself.

and i wouldnt wish depression on anyone

I think what PS means by 'take it personally' is that you feel that these things have happened because you are a cunt and an unlovable, horrible person. It's a genuine belief that makes complete sense to you. What you mean is taking responsibility - 'I've fucked up so I'm going to put it right'.

Not necessarily the same thing, and the difference between responses to the stressor in this situation (ie why some people man up and get on with it and others blame themselves) is still not a fully understood field. It's probably to do with genetics, maybe to do with stress, maybe to do with personal circumstance, maybe a mixture.

Or is it all just one big domino rally of cause and effect? The last domino falls where it does precisely because of the way in which the first one fell. This would mean that everything is predetermined and that choice is merely an illusion. Obviously, there are too many variables to predict the future but that doesn't mean that it's not predetermined.

One of the many things that suck about depression is that if women catch on that you have it, they will run a mile! That's why men try to hide it. Male depression is worse. It is seen as a sign of weakness and men are not allowed to be weak; EVER!

If a woman is sad or depressed (especially if she is pretty) people will pamper her and do everything to protect her and make her feel better. If a man feels depressed he will be told to snap out of it, or balls up. There is much more of a stigma attached to male depresson.

I personally think that depression is a mental thing, and not something pharmaceuticals can fix alone. I think there is always an underlying issue, and there is always a reason for depression. I think CBT is very helpful (not had it though), and although pharmaceuticals may help in the short term, I believe a person has to learn to cope with the issue long term.

I think the coping mechanisms are picked up as a child, and someone who has a bad experience in this, would probably suffer depression or some other mental issue in later life.

I think a big thing for men who are depressed is the lack of support. As someone has rightly mentioned on this thread, women may perceive a man as weak if he shows his depression. Also, men usually don't let out their emotions to other men regarding depression, as the response can often be "man up". So who does a man have to talk to? Instead, he just goes over it all in his head, spirallaing downwards until rock bottom.

Just my two cents

About 4 or 5 years ago, I was on holiday with a girlfriend, she was in the bath, and I was on the floor chatting to her.

We had this WIERD conversation about why everything happens, why we are here on earth, are things pre-determined, and it totally spun us out, and it kinda put us on a downer, cos we got to the point of "why are we here, if we just die at the end".

I've never had the conversation with anybody else ever since.. I tend not to think about it too much..

Co-incidentally I was thinking this through the other day. I mean, life does look quite prosaic after a while. People do the same things by and large, day in, day out, they follow a set path of marriage, kids, grandkids, retirement, gardening gardening gardening, death! (that Gardening bit courtesy of Dylan Moran, so funny). I had a long spell of travelling and hotels with work, you start to really see it in real time, when you're living like that pre-packaged lifestyle. You can't help but wonder what the bloody hell is going on and what the point of it is. This existential interest is a luxury of modern times, if I was about to be eaten by a bear I'd have more immediate concerns. It used to be a depressing thought, but now for some reason I draw more positive conclusions from it. I mean, we're gonna croak and it is all therefore a bit silly, but nonetheless we are here so we might as well relish our lives and enjoy ourselves!

PS

Hahahah nice tourettes

love it

You know I had never considered that, but what a charming thought, you're spot on there!

PS

How does one go down the path of learning more about philosiphy (properly), without the expensive route of higher education? Its something I have looked at the surface of, and it just seemed so vast, I gave up immediately.

It doesn't really change anything because it will always FEEL like we have choice (free will), so we will just carry on the same anyway. The criminal may not be able to help the fact that he commits a crime, but at the same time, society cannot help but be disgusted and the police cannot help but arrest him.

When you read a book, or watch a film the last page or scene has already been written but we still carry on with it and it doesn't make it any less of an experience.

There are two main types of determinism, one is to do with the physical universe and cause and effect the other is to do with the way we may be limited by our genes in making emotion based decisions. I have gone more into depth about that here:

http://www.puaforum.co.uk/reviews/31...html#post40397

If you click on this link, you may feel as though you had the choice to do so. But that choice would not have appeared had I not posted the link and I would not have posted the link had I not got up just now thinking about this stuff.

I would not have got up just now thinking about this had I not overslept due to strange dreams. I would have overslept and had strange dreams if I had not split up with my gf. I would not have split up with my gf if xy and b had not have happened and so on and so forth all the way back to the big bang and even quite possibly beyond it.

However it doesn't change a thing. If you click on the link and read the post it will feel like free will and who knows it may just help you... and then a whole lot of other cause and effect consequences will come out of that too. All that matters is that it is a good experience. Now I must meditate... this is the effect of a lot of causes.

I have tried meditating when lying down before, and I fall asleep every time. But when I fall asleep, its not the same. Its kind of a deep deep sleep, but then when I wake up, I feel like I have literally ZERO energy at all. I do not feel refreshed at all.

I have meditated sitting up before, and this does make me feel more refreshed, but sometimes it makes me more tired. I've even wasted 20 mins meditating in the toilet at work before!

But meditation is not something I do regularly, and I'm not really sure why. I just forget, or don't feel motivated to do it. I guess I kind of have my own style of meditation, when I just sit in silence and relax.

But my mind is so "outcome dependant" that I feel I am looking for something when meditating, which kind of defeats the point. Its like I am searching for myself, but don't know what I am looking for.

I've also listened to one of those audio files that are supposed to induce a certain type of brainwave, but that really made me feel so dead and out of energy again. Also, one of Paul McKenna's cds did that to me as well, the thing about "I can make you rich". Why does my brain go so negative after these self improvement methods?

I guess when you think about it, cause and effect is all around us, but nobody ever takes notice of it. Maybe we can use cause and effect in our favour?

I'm just generalising here, but your comments make me want to relate a little bit more of my own personal experience on this.

As someone who has suffered depression for most of his life, in my experience getting a social life will not make it go away. It will hold depression at bay but the fact of the matter is that depression is an internal mindset that cannot be changed or removed by external forces.

You have to make a conscious effort. You have to say "I'm not going to be depressed anymore". Easier said than done, I know, but in order to get that social life you need to be somebody others will want to hang around with in the first place.

Of course friends and family are there to help you help yourself, and certainly your career choices can have a major influence on the people you meet and how you feel. That's the main reason I left a secure, well paid job where I felt I didn't fit in to try and take a more proactive approach in what I did with my life, rather than just going with the flow. Progress is slow and sometimes quite painful, but when the alternative is staying as you are for the next 30 to 40 years, motivation to grind out a result is there.

Using cause and effect in your favour is generally called making good decisions. Whether or not you had free will in making them is irelevant. All that matters is the journey and the outcome.

There is all this talk of being "non outcome dependant" which is getting to be a bit of an RSD cliche', and is exagerated to the point of not giving a fuck about the outcome, but of course we are interested in the outcome. Otherwise what would be the point?

Do the coachs of winning football teams tell their players to be "non outcome dependant"? Do they fuck! We all want a positive outcome. We want to win.

Read up on meditation to do it correctly; obviously you can't be too fixed on the outcome, as Rome was not built in a day, but at the same time you are doing it for a REASON.

Yeah I know what you mean, I've been reading an NLP book, and it does mention about having outcomes that you want to achieve, and making it a positive thing rather than negative. Its called "outcome thinking", and it says the opposite is "problem thinking".

What about when you are trying to use cause and effect in your favour, wanting a positive outcome, and you think you have made a good decision, but then the result is bad? There have been times in my life when I have thought "i made a good decision, im helping others, and then shit happens to make life harder again". Maybe thats just my bad viewpoint, cos I should frame problems as an opportunity.

I don't think we will ever figure out everything. I think it's like a dog chasing it's own tail, or like unpeeling layer after never ending layer from an infinite onion. There seem to be an endless stream of sub-atomic-particles; new ones are being found all the time.

We have even gone behind the big bang now, to the singularity, and are theorising about what there was behind that, the multiverse, m-brane theory etc... it will never end.

So, therefore we will never arrive at a point in which we can prove that there is or isn't free will... there are just too many variables. If you you place a drop of water on the back of your hand it will roll off and land in a predetermined place, due to the shape of your hand, bumps, contours, hairs, a slight breeze etc ad infinitum. There are so many variables that all the computers in the world could not figure it out, but it doesn't mean that it is not predetermined. Logic does seem to indicate that there is no free will... but I suppose I will just carry on as though there is.

People are afraid of this theory as they think that it will make us all irresponsible for our actions. They don't like the thought that the universe and us all included may just be like an extremely intricate flower opening in a predetermined way. It offends the ego to think that we don't have free will.

Personally, I don't think it makes a jot of difference. We don't storm out of movie theatres because the ending is predetermined. Just enjoy the show.

Oh yeah, we were talking about depression. How depressing; I have no choices! lol So I also have no choice in the matter when I keep forgetting that I have no choice and feel as though I do.

The key is the emotions. We will never feel like we are a computer program, because we have emotions. When something affects us on an emotional level, we cannot detach ourselves and say, "Oh, but she had no choice." We react, and we are so driven by our emotions and sensations that it does indeed feel like we made a choice.