Tomorrow is the first night on the job and a few concerns...
 

Hey guys, I'm going to try and draw together some tips and methods from Mystery's approach read in the Game and see how they work tomorrow night. I know I may be opening a minefield of debate but I would like to know what you guys think of his approach and if you have any tips or advice for someone trying this out for the first time. If it helps any I might be with another guy (who won't act as a wing) and will be in a full-blown nightclub rather than a bar, so it will be hard to talk to and understand the girls, but it must be a common place for this kind of thing. Also I have quite a good character/personality and looks I just lack confidence, do you think that saying cheesy pick up lines and forcing myself into an order of actions would be beneficial, or would it be better to just balls up and let it flow? Any thoughts?

Hey, thanks for the reply, so I just grab girls and suggest something fun to do? (within reason of course)

Hey CE, welcome to the forum!

Broadly, you've found a forum here where many users (I won't venture a majority, although certainly a sizeable number) broadly reject the Mystery Method / Style style of game, and prefer a more direct, natural approach.

That approach pretty much says what it does on the tin. Be natural. Be yourself.

Personally (and I know others will disagree with me on this), I'd suggest your best bet for tomorrow night is to pick a single simple open ended opener which you can reel off at will. This isn't a line which will 'work', for such a line doesn't exist (although countless PUA instructors will try to convince you it does, and they have it, and for £19.99 you can download their e-book to find out what is is), but is simply a line to open a conversation with a girl. From there, I will simply talk about anything that comes to mind.

There are broad principles to follow. Go kino, and close the physical space between you and the girl. Lead. Don't get sucked into responding to shit tests. David DeAngelo's advice of never giving a straight answer helps here - be playful and tease.

But you know, I've probably already given you way too much to think about. Very simply, go out and talk to some girls, and see what happens. Then come on here, describe your experiences, and you'll get the benefit of some extremely talented and experienced people who will critique, and suggest improvements.

RE: Dance floor game. Very simply, go there and have fun. Be there on your own terms. Fuck around, dance like a prick, have fun and enjoy yourself. You'll find girls will gravitate towards you, giving you the opportunity to engage them in your dancing.

Don't be the weirdo who stands there trying to dance with all the girls. He's weird. Hence, the 'weirdo' tag.

Two final points I'd stress:

1. You're probably not gonna go out tomorrow and suddenly fall into an abundance with women. It takes time and hard work (but, I'm not saying you won't! Go out and get stuck in man!)
2. I sense you've not read around much? Is this correct? If so, get your hands on some RSD stuff, Tyler Durden's Blueprint seminar, and Juggler's How To Meet and Connect With Women or whatever its called. Therein lie the broad principles you need. The best pick up advice provides an outline framework constructed of theories governing basic human interrelationships and interactions, and leaves your own personality to fill in the details. Other parts of pick up - MM, for example - try to provide you with a personality as well. You've already got one of them, though. You just need to use it a little.

:)

Hey CO, thanks for your great advice and comprehensive reply, it most certainly given me a lot to think about. In response to your question, no, I haven't read around a lot, in fact I found out about the the whole PUA community last night when I happened upon Strauss' Game (hence it being my only source of referential material :P ) I will read up on your suggestions. I think what I lack in my current approach is going kino, and letting girls know that I'm sexually interested in them. If I am going to post up my experiences from the night here should I put them in the Field Reports section or continue on this thread? Thanks again for your advice, the evening was originally just going to be a piss up, but with PUA in mind spending an evening getting hammered is probably an evening of opportunity and practice lost :p

Stick it in the Field Reports section. Tis a field report after all!

Nah man, these two aren't mutually exclusive! Go out and have a bev, have a laugh, and talk to some girls.

Looking forward to hearing how you get on :)

Thats what i am trying to change

Thanks for your advice man, will definitely let you know how I get on. I'm so up for doing this! XD

Good luck man! The trouble I've found is I don't want to seem pushy or harass girls, like I was playing ultimately hard to get which probably translated as not being interested at all.

Exactly my problem, i have a good look to me and girls would definitely notice me but i felt awkward and anxious about approaching girls, almost like i shouldn't have to, they should approach me.. thing is one of the mistakes i made was listening to a lot of the MM bullshit and/or misinterpreting pu material. By this i mean i would see a girl she would notice me and like what she saw, she felt attracted to me...however i would decide to finally go over to her after hesistating for a while... (not good) then i would ask her opinion on something...(very bad in this circumstance)she knew damn rightly that i was just to scared to tell her i liked her and my opinion wasn't genuine.. she felt like she was the higher valued person... and the fact that this girl was not even stunning but maybe a 7 and i didn't feel super attracted to her made me feel that because i was unsuccessful in my approach i felt that i was of lower value... so like a lot of people say on this forum be genuine, authentic and truely be yourself, you have to mean what you say for it to come off well and for the girl to respond positively.

Another thing to note is don't accept any limitations, i used to take some pu "rules" to heart like in the case of the dancefloor, if you listened to MM you wouldn't go near it, fuck that...MM is for ugly people, people who are forced to go indirect to open because girls don't view them as intial visually attractive. If your good looking go more direct.. Like covert said particularly well, that you should use what you have available to you and engineer your own individual style of game based on your personality, we our all different but the key is to be your true/best self when your out.

I'm not a pro by any means, but I approach a lot with varying success, I'd like to add the following, planned openers won't bring you success, I use them sometimes but have the same success rate by saying "Hi you seem fun" or just smiling and introducing myself. It's how you come across and what you follow up with that will make the difference.

I use the smoking area a lot, it's easy to talk to people and people like being social there. I hate trying to have a conversation in which I can't hear the other person, alternatively the bar is a great place to talk to hot isolated girls. At some point I'll pretty much always ask if a girl is a dancer and try and tease them that I'd win in a dance off. They generally will get excited/competetive and say how much they love dancing or how great they are blah blah blah. Usually eject with when I see you later inside we'll have our dance off, or or similar. Do these simple steps well and it's all about bumping into them on the dance floor, showing your good fun and escalating fast. IMO the best way to escalate is to take their hand and spin them, simple but it works. The next stage is to do the same but when they are facing away from you let go and grind on them from behind. Final tip would be to pretend to know salsa or even better actually learn some. I know very little other than a few steps, but teaching a girl some is easy, great kino and makes you look fun.

Thanks for your advice, I really like the idea of engineering what you have to play your own game, it makes far more sense to me.

Thanks for your advice, that dancing idea is great and I will be using it next time I'm out. I'm tempted to learn salsa. I don't smoke, but I suppose it won't matter too much it may just be a bit odd going around the smoking area and not smoking. Also I found last night that open questions did work, but I felt stupid saying them, it was something to talk about if nothing else.

Field Reports section. What you could do is start a thread there called for ex. 'My Pickup journey'. We've had many of these and they are a good read for everyone and you can track your journey and see how far you progressed since that first report.

The key at this stage is to get out there and try out stuff and have fun. Let us know how you get on however badly or well it goes.

Hey thanks for the advice, will make a thread detailing all of my ventures, seems like a good way to keep everything together.

why not, maybe u should start us off with a possible universal....

probably could do with its own thread

2.kino escalate

dude this so needs its own thread...this is some serious shizzle right here!

From a noobie's perspective some of it is hard to follow and contradictory. I'm definitely interested to see agreed constants or undisputed tips that everyone thinks are essential.

As I hinted at here...

...I think the world of Pick Up is hopelessly over complicated, and that a newbie is offered way too many do's and don'ts (something I know I've self contradicted with my own earlier lengthy contribution... What can I say, I always say way too much. I'd make a meal of describing how to make a cup of tea!) that cloud the mind and obscure clear judgement.

I also firmly believe that often pick up is made deliberately obtuse in order to somewhat artificially construct a problem which can then be solved with the application of e-books (£9.99, by the way).

I think the basic principles are as follows:

1. Approach women, without excuse.
2. Say anything, no pre-set routine is needed.
3. Apply kino. Lots of it. From beginning to the end.

...That's my tuppence worth, because they're the bits I've got down, and can do broadly well. Beyond that, others have suggested that follows includes escalation and closing, but I haven't done it enough nor succeeded enough in order to be able to say myself with any degree of certainty.

Approach without excuse simply means don't accept excuses for not approaching.

I've caught myself umpteenthousand times saying 'Nah, I won't bother with her, she's too <insert perceived negative characteristic here>'

And eventually, it becomes a crutch for getting oneself out of approaching.

By saying 'without excuse' I mean approach everyone. Fat, thin, fit, ugly, young, old, whatever. Open everyone, and decide later whether you want to push or not.

ye i find i do that, justifyin why u didnt HATE THAT.

- avoid being negative and depressing

- show sexual interest (im being purposefully vague here)

- take the initiative/lead when it comes to closing (K/F/No. closing)

its just a general universal principle of having successful interactions with girls generally. its invariably good practice. there are exceptions and caveats no doubt....few and far between might i add. are we looking for a 100% pure (no exceptions/flaws) set of guidelines...surely not, there can be exceptions/flaws found in all universal principles. i would think avoiding being negative/depressing is a universal principle... it is more helpful than not . the instances whereby it would be unhelpful are quite frankly rare.

this is my standard to which i am judging whether a principle of pua is universal or not. the test has 2 limbs =

1) is the principle more helpful than not helpful in an interaction with a girl?

and

2) are the instances where it is not helpful rare?

the 2nd limb is the decider

not perfect but using the above words "every day understood meanings" should help...lets avoid unnecessary semantics as far as poss.

moving on... i said:

you said:

not necessarily, i can imagine escalating kino in a playful way cos i cant help but feel a non sexual/funny connection with her or i think of teh girl as my little sister etc..
kino/escalation and showing sexual interest can quite neatly be mutually exclusive principles. u can also show sexual interest through words or anything else besides kino

moving on...i said;

you said;

again see above i can imagine getting a no. without kino.. their seperate concepts. i agree the word “close” is shit...i see it more as a milestone eg no. milestone, kiss milestone etc.. its just becoming semantics now tho

also i was being vague as to the manner in which some one shows "sexual interest". people have there own different way s of doing it, i wont be prescribing a particular way. i was not being vague as to the definition of "sexual interest” or its relevance as a universal principle


you said

The answer... an agreed upon test to determine what is universal and what is not…see the above test...Its not watertight but nothing will be, a lot of subjectivism is involved here.

so lets get this shit nailed down so we can proceed :D

x

firstly respect!

my thoughts;

i think the above is too widely worded and not administratively workable, it leaves open the possibility of not much being agreed upon, eg if 1 person disputes a principle were pretty much fucked from the get go. it relies too heavily on others intellect, which maybe lacking. 100% consensus isnt always a workable standard to judge against. this maybe why previous attempts at this havent got very far. i think my test has a better type of wording, it needs to be stricter maybe but the wording and step by step structure is more administratively workable. this is not a diss by the way or me massaging my ego.

im with u on the whole pragmatist approach to truth! also with u on best intentions and dealing with single principles at a time. to ensure this i propose a new thread per principle eg UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE; KINO? .. UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE: NEG?

b4 we start though we need to nail down an agreed upon test. also is context to be ignored, or should it play a part so as to determine universal principles in different contexts eg HB 10 context is different to HB 6 context?

i propose something close to the following updated test;

1) is the principle more helpful than not helpful in an interaction with a girl?

and

2) are the instances where it is not helpful rare?

and

3) "but for" the use of that principle a sucessful interaction with a girl would not be possible....(maybe this is where context needs to come into it)

now this seriously tightens up the test, possibly a bit to strict for my liking which is why it may be useful for context to be brought into the third limb. the third limb "but for test" is a classic legal causation test. its a much tried and tested way of determining whether something caused something else..a key element to our investigation.

obviously each principle would need to be assessed against each limb and we would collectively need to decide as to whether the principles pass each limb. i propose the standard of simply needing more consensus than not, rather than 100% consensus. the safe guard here is that our consensus will be arrived at through real critical investigation (hopefully) rather than arrived at through people reading fairy tale bull shit in books.


peace

Show value?

i agree consensus is the answer, but that consensus should as far as possible be based on something scientific, like an objective criteria ie a test, rather than a consensus based on intuition and possible flawed understandings. an objective criteria allows contributors to critically analyse what may have really been at play in their interactions.

im surprised at ur resistance to a more scientific and objective approach. surely it reduces the chance of this endeavour turning into BS talk

i advocate trying something more objective rather than relying on old unsuccessful methods; if u always do what uve always done, ull always get what uve always got


tbh i dont trust the groups individual criterium/criterias, nothing personal against anyone but understandings can be flawed. id prefer to set one agreed criteria to judge against, at least as a first port of call.

I am in agreement.
I've tried reading this thread twice now and I'm still not quite sure exactly what is going on, my brain hurts, not enough sleep. Honestly I think you should just have a Newbies FAQ sticky and let people argue and refine answers as they wish or by vote if common agreement cant be found.

breaker, arguing out a topic like this subject matter leads to chaos and no answers. this is why (in the first instance at least) we should judge statements against an objective criteria and take it from there.

respect

Hey, Thought i would get this thing rolling again, i do feel you guys are getting weighed down in semantics
Now i am no expert here but it may get you guys thinking

consider this rough framework -- K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid)

1. Open
a)Mid Level Hook
b)Kino

2. Build Comfort
a)High End Hooks
a)Demonstrate Value
b)Kino

3. Attraction
a)Sexual vibe/frame
b)Escalate Kino/Intimate

4. Conclude
a)Number
b)Kiss Close
c)Venue Change

good luck with ur approach k...so far seems to be going really well ;)

x

ur assuming lack of opposition = consensus, (a purely negative test) thats convenient seen as tho this thread lacks any real structure or coherence...enough to put most off from contributing/opposing

the fact that 3 principles so far that have been supposedly "agreed upon" doesn't mean ur approach is workable with less patently obvious principles of pu, and that doesn't mean that no other universal principles exist, it just means the approach is flawed.

get me yo!

Escalate..

Make your intentions indisputable ---ie, give me your number, i want to do rude things to you, lets go on a date ---- scaling up to -- kiss close, f close

i agree with:

1. interact with girls
2. kino
3. escalate

ref3x r u saying escalation includes making ur intentions clear and also attempting/obtaining a no. close. if so why would escalation not also include attempting/obtaining a k/f close. surely escalation has to involve all three types of close or none at all. a no close is no more/less related to escalation than the other two types of close.

if escalation actually doesnt involve closing (of any type), which is what i prefer, then escalation ends just b4 closing.

closing then becomes a separate part of the process of having a sucessful interaction with a girl. and so it also becomes a seperate universal principle of PU, exclusive of escalation. and so the list becomes;

1. interact with girls
2. kino
3. escalate
4. close

agreed?

k, u must see how this looks

ur proposing;

1) not using an objective positive test to judge "universal principles" by. essentially meaning lets rely wholly on peoples gut feelings as to whether a principle is universal or not, and then just argue it out without any reference to something objective. which means people will just argue it out until one person cant be arsed anymore or cant articulate themselves as good as an opposing person.

2) equating a lack of opposition to consensus in circumstances where very few are contributing/opposing anyway...such a negative test is pretty redundant in the circumstances

3) not requiring a broad consensus


should we not just say, k u be the judge of it all. thats what it looks like. forget an impartial objective criteria, the reality is we'll use k's internal all knowing gut feeling and as long as people cant be arsed to disagree with ur assertions then jobs a gooden, in any case u would only need to convince one other person to have a consensus based on the above...

i feel strongly about this topic and think checks and balances would only be beneficial, nothing to lose everything to gain...surely u agree?

Strip it down to a bare minimum and in a club you can pull by just grabbing a girl and kissing her. I Guess that move could be argued as an interaction, kino, escalation and close wrapped up in one. Stating the constants might not be very helpful to a newbie as there are so few.

Yes Escalate and close are different, i agree with that one

I still think my initial definition of escalate holds

Escalate, make your intentions indesputable -- show your cards (poker) etc

Close -- what exactly is a definition of close, you leaving the set? closing said interaction, couldnt obtaining a number and a kiss happen before the close? (during escalate) you may kiss, swap numbers, venue change or meet back up later for fclose

so basically i think the definition or current useage of Kiss Close, Fuck Close are mis-used

I think therefore me previous definition with slight tweaking of Escalate holds

Escalate -
Make your intentions indisputable ---ie, give me your number, i want to do rude things to you, lets go on a date ---- scaling up to -- kiss , fuck (lose the close)

my definition of close;

closing is reaching one of three miles stones; obtaining a girls no, kissing a girl, fucking a girl

leaving the set is leaving the set, its not a close...i wouldnt even say leaving the set is a universal principle of pua as i can imagine a scenario where someone enters a set stays in set takes girl home, fucks her, she stays round and moves in...crazier shit has happened

escalating is showing that ur not there to be friends, making it clear u intend something of a sexual nature to result

closing follows on from escalating therefore, as when u close u achieve an act of a sexual nature or arrange to meet at a later date to acheive that intended result


peace

actually refl3x, yea closing can occur during escalation. it does not necessarily occur at the end of escalation. so yea this shit isnt that linear.

but the fact that closing can occur during escalation doesn't mean that its part of escalation per se. it is novel enough and significantly different enough from escalating (showing ur sexual intent) as closing is the achievement of a sexual act (kiss/fuck) or the arrangement for pursuing such an act at a later date (no. close). this last type of close is still different from escalation because its more than just purely showing ur sexual intent. why? because u have reached a point where u have achieved concrete acceptance from the girl for u to pursue a sexual act with her at a later date. this doesn't mean u will always maintain that acceptance and always end up shagging her...girls change minds and shit happens. but obtaining a girls number is nevertheless a milestone (acheiving concrete acceptance at that point to persue a sexual act at a later date) and so different from escalating (purely showing ur sexual intent). escalating causes the close. they are seperate concepts. and the close doesnt always occur right at the end of escalation, it can be at the bgining/middle/end of escalation.

the distinction maybe fine but it is still valid.

agree?

hope this doesnt turn into pure semantics

I guess it depends in what way you want you define a close

Close - the set ending in one way or another either you are blown out and walk off, get bored and walk off, get on great, swap numbers and walk off....emphasis on walk off

I like the idea because its like the Matrix... Everything that has a begining has an end. its a path from A to B and therfore easy to follow for a newbie

the other close

Close - scaling from: Facebook, Email - Kiss, number swap, fuck

I feel thats creating a very shallow interaction and as you mentioned close can happen at any stage and isnt the end of the set-- which for a newbie looking at a flowchart for example will see the chart going round in circles
You could open a set by saying ' you have somthing on your lips' and kissing her within 15 secs of the set opening... so does Newbie high five himself and then go looking for somone else, because he has reached his goal.

yes Semantics are shite and bore me
Ive raised those 2 points because for a simple A - B for a newbie the first close is easier but the second close is not any less valid and actually has greater validity based on the knowledge before us - all prior PUA literature

Whats K`s take on this?:detective:

ive only read covert operations advice (the first 2), but he gives good advice i'd follow that mate

spend it wisely

back to the topic...

i said

you said

but u didnt address my assertion re "avoiding being depressing". does this mean u agree that "avoiding being depressing" is a universal principle.



also how can "avoiding being negative" (in its current form) not be satisfactory as a universal principle.

to clarify im not just talking about 1 or 2 negative comments or cheeky playful negs/push pull etc..

if a person is being negative they must be being more negative than positive in an interaction.

see definition of what negative entails;
negative - definition of negative by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

avoiding being negative is fundamental to having a good interaction with a girl. it would be very rare that being negative would cause a girl to go for a guy.