The Ethics of Attraction

[Flake]

Happy 2010 guys!

This post is probably my most polemic and is in no way intended to be offensive but instead seen as an expression of my aquired moral values.

Background
I recently became a member of the facebook group 'PUA aristocracy'. Among other prominent members the group includes 'guru' Ross Jeffries. I quickly became involved in the prominant discussion at the time which was a thread entitled "Older men younger girl".

Poster: "I'm 63, been told I don't look it, certaily don't feel it. I am divorecd with grown up kids. Kinda gave up, short of time and money but an extremely diastorous attempt to date a girl of 26..."

Ross Jeffries: "I'm 51. My last GF was 20 when we broke up. I met her when I was 48 and she was 18....These girls are still developing a good work ethic, a strategy to stay organized. They are overstimulated and over-stressed and WILL occasionally flake. They often have attention spans of about 72 hours. IF YOU DO NOT FUCK THEM THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE THEM ALONE AND ARE PHYSICAL WITH THEM, YOU LIKELY WILL NOT FUCK THEM... Learn to touch them. Boys their age will pound them but can't touch them erotically to save their lives."

'Older men younger girl'

Suprisingly I was the only person to argue against the viewpoint shown by Mr. Jeffries in this debate and needless to say I became sickened by what many were suggesting. I presented this argument:

Flake: "I am fully aware that he does not want to target a more appropriate age group but that in itself is inherently strange. People generally are attracted to people they can empathise with and three generations apart is way too far for much common ground. Biologically its not meant to happen - people are initially attracted to qualities of youth or that represent youth and fertility yet as we age people should look for commitment on less superficial grounds as corrosponds with the individuals loss of fertility.
I can't change the guys mind but the situation is definately abnormal and I will not advocate using psychological manipulation to attract women when it is not at all in their interest."

The Ethics of Attraction
After reading The Game I very quickly became aware of the moral questions that arose from 'seduction'. On one hand it empowers 'nice' men to attract women who would otherwise overlook them yet on the other many schools teach methods that are undeniably manipulative. I feel that many of us on this forum are very enlightened and have respect for other people yet outside this forum there is this sinister side that goes beyond wanting to have fun and live a happier, more sucessful life. The mantra of pickup, 'any man can attract any woman', seems to have lead many men to the belief that it is right to attract any woman. There are many situations where it is NOT AT ALL RIGHT to seduce a woman. My belief is that seduction is ok when it is in both parties interest and not achieved by manipulation(this includes psychological manipulation in the same way it includes bribary and blackmail). This isn't to say openers and use of body language is evil but when it transcends the point of just wanting to have fun and be a more awesome person it becomes wrong.

This obviously isn't a black and white matter; no one can say what is definately right and wrong. I do think though that it is clear people should be genuine and honest. Pickup should be about the aquisition of confidence and the development of social skills. It should be about changing yourself, not the women you meet. I do not agree with guys hitting on taken women or hitting on women of a vastly different age(more specifically younger women) when the guy uses anything more than his genuine self to attract them. The women needs to make an uninfluenced decision and in many cases women will not follow thier gut feeling if there are big negative consequences. If a woman, unmanipulated, makes the decision to forsake their partner or whatever to be with someone else then this when its ok.

Now I'm not trying to imply women are weak or can be easily persuaded to do things against their will but there are techniques that can be used to manipulate almost any person into doing things of no benefit to themselves and the people who are most vulnerable to this are the least confident and least socially adept people - the most innocent people. I've introduced a massive topic here and my opinions are by no means authoritive or conclusive but they are from a humanist and considerate perspective. I'd like to know what you guys have to add.

[Flake]

In addition I realise that 'right and wrong' are subjective yet I'd like to think there is some natural human morality that does define right and wrong based on consideration of others as well as one's self

[Flake]

I dont think there is a magic spell of attraction or anything but it is very possible to take advantage of insecure and/or niave people especially by someone who has understanding and practice of psychological techniques. And age isn't just a number; people cannot really have much in common if they're born into vastly different generations. There's something wrong about being primarily attracted to people significantly younger than yourself, if not only because its shallow.

[Simply David]

Originally Posted by Jaz

These guys (just like RJ) are not on a path of social enlightenment but more a path of self-fulfillment.

Totally agree, and they never will, you cant become the absolute Alpha Male or ultimate frame controlled strong willed b*stard, someone else will always be better than you so get over it and submit to the reality!!

Young isnt always attractive either, there are some fugly 18 years olds girls.

But when there is an attractive 18 year old its just a more purer form of innocence that guys feed off, their elixir. Which is pretty lame..

But if its an 18 year old bitch, then shes likely to still be a bitch no matter what age she is so I dont see that as a problem personally. Lol!!

[Simply David]

Originally Posted by kowalski

I don't see you submitting to reality.

LMAO!! I am bro, you just dont know my reality, its complicated and Im trying to sort it out.

Originally Posted by kowalski

Even if you can't be the best at something doesn't mean you should 'submit to reality'.

You just did by acknowledging that fact or possibility, its no biggie...

[Mycroft]

What is being the ultimate alpha male?

Is it being some kind of Tony Soprano, leader of men, take no shit from nobody, firm view of the world type of guy or,

Is it a Russell Brand, not give a fuck about what people think, no interest in leading anyone or in what they think, live the way you want and prob shag Tonys girl when his back is turned type.

What I mean is I have no interest in chasing an imaginary top spot in life, I want to be the best person I can be, achieve the things I want, do right by the people I care about and try not to be negatively affected by the views of others.

Its easy to chase someone elses idea of being number one I'd rather define my own.

[Simply David]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

What is being the ultimate alpha male?

Is it being some kind of Tony Soprano, leader of men, take no shit from nobody, firm view of the world type of guy or,

Is it a Russell Brand, not give a fuck about what people think, no interest in leading anyone or in what they think, live the way you want and prob shag Tonys girl when his back is turned type.

What I mean is I have no interest in chasing an imaginary top spot in life, I want to be the best person I can be, achieve the things I want, do right by the people I care about and try not to be negatively affected by the views of others.

Its easy to chase someone elses idea of being number one I'd rather define my own.

Totally agree.

What I meant was even if you do become Tony or Russell and are no. 1 in that, sooner or later someone else will usurp you.

[Flake]

S'gone pretty off-topic but a good debate nevertheless. My point about youth equating to beauty is that features usually considered attractive(visually) in women relate to youth and fertility as would be expected naturally.

Originally Posted by Jaz

I would be interested to hear how old you are exactly.

20

Originally Posted by Jaz

A good buddy of mine John is in his late fifties. What do me and John have in common? FUCKING LOADS OF STUFF.

I didn't say same-gender. My dad said, and I think rightly, that men keep the same mindset through most of their life but women change (as illustrated by hormonal differences). That said I would find it very hard to find any common ground with a woman above 40 that meant anything to me(though I concede common ground isn't strictly necessary for a successful relationship)

Originally Posted by Jaz

How do you feel about an 18 year old man dating a 40 year old woman?

I would find it very strange. It'd be like one of my friends dating my mum and so that seems strange to me(I will admit the age difference between my father and his partner is similar to this[I feel uneasy about their relationship]). I don't think age matters as such in the twilight between the mid 20's and late forties but it becomes more of an issue after(and before) that for sure.

Originally Posted by Jaz

Well the problem is everyone elses apparently.

I agree. If two people want to be together then that's perfect in isolation but there are social (and even natural[like out-of-sync death]) pressures involved. Maybe I see this too rationally but it seems its much more natural for people to be attracted to people of a similar age/background (with there even being evidence to suggest people are attracted to people who share similar physical qualities).


Anyway my problem isn't such with the romantic notion of large age gaps but the exploitation of vulnerable people. And don't say it doesn't happen or whatever because IT DOES, there are cases of people being manipulated into relationships they don't deeply want to be in(my mum's relationship with my dad has even been described as this) and obviously there are far more extreme cases. I know this isnt a problem with pickup exclusively but there seems to be a few people(such as those I've seen on PUA aristrocracy; not on here) who really are quite disgusting and selfish people.

[Shark]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions Brothers let us all remember that - and we are all free to agree and disagree respectively. This time Flake I must disagree. When I was 19 I was dating a 34 year old girl and we had an awesome time together for 6months, and when I was 27 I was seeing a 43 year old girl and now at 28 I recently full-closed a 17 year old girl too - age isn't important if two people click and there is an attraction. I believe that NLP and other such 'magic' can strongly suggest things to people (Derren Brown has shown some examples of this) but it comes down to character too.

I wouldn't ever trick a girl into sleeping with me because I am awesome and fun and at the end of the day I know she will want me. I think the issues arise when people use these techniques to trick girls into bed....it is like getting a girl so pissed or spiking her drink so that you can sleep with her - because she has lost any real conscious choice (not that I am suggesting this is your style Flake!! lol).

I think a lot of peopel get distracted by the PU world and what it means. As far as I am concerned PU skills make us more rounded, more thoughtful, fun guys who learn to care more about their apprearence, their outlook, their whole attitude to girls and indeed to life. I have found the Community a real big confidence boost; it has made me realise I have potential when before I was an AFC, made me realsie I am attractive, I am good to be around and made me realise that girls do want to fuck me and so I should stop feeling sorry for myself and get out there and enjoy life. You will always get teh peopel that are here for the 'tricks' to getting girls into bed and not caring if they hurt them but I feel these people are in the minority; if you treat a girl with respect (you can do this even if you neg them) then it is okay to run routines on them, to make them feel good about themselves, to make a connection with them - as long as you are honest about what you are offering and don't lead them on. Girls like sex too and if they know where they stand with you up-front then you're playing by the moral rules in my opinion.

PU has developed me as a man and I think it is appropriate to say that this site fucking rocks and I love you all my Brothers.

[Flake]

Perhaps you guys are right, though I do find gaps of more than one generation strange. And with characters like Ross Jeffries I suppose I'm overestimating the prevalence of the 'bad guys'