I agree there are only a few people who act in this way Flake, but with people as talented as Ross Jefferies about who seemingly lack any moral/ethical standards sometimes - then those few are more than enough!! lol

Good conclusion dude

This debate takes me back to an argument I had with an ex-girlfriend's mate. Before I explain, can I also just say how good it is to see us having discussions like this, these are important issues and it is good to see we don't take them lightly. In fact, I think if we did take issues such as these lightly, then I wouldn't want to be part of the PU community.

When I was with my ex, I got into a heated debate with a friend of hers. Now it was 2 or 3 years since I'd read The Game, and when I got with my ex I wasn't practicing any PUA technique or anything. However, one night, a female friend of hers began complaining about this book she'd heard about, called The Game, which taught guys to manipulate girls into bed.

I asked her for some more information on her views on this. It turned out she had also read The Rules, and she began to compare the two, although made it abundantly clear she hadn't read The Game. Her central thesis was that, where The Rules taught girls how to handle relationships. The Game, she said, was entirely short term, and didn't pay any attention to satisfying a woman's needs - only a man's.

I turned to her and smiled... "Well, I have read The Game, and I've got to say I've got some problems with what you're saying." I went on to explain that the PUA community is a case of many different shades of grey, and not the black and white that she was making it out to be. I explained that there were many different theories within the PUA community, and that different people were simply trying different things.

In response to her complaints about relationships and short termism, I rehearsed an argument I have since read in David DeAngelo: What's wrong with that, exactly? If a guy doesn't want a relationship, if he isn't in a position to be in a relationship, then why should be become celibate? Further, would she apply those same maxims to the female species, and criticise every woman who didn't want to be in a relationship? Because there were also many of them.

I then got to the crux of my argument: The PUA community is indeed many different shades of grey, and there are elements within it which I have fundamental misgivings with. One example I cited was, indeed, Ross Jeffries, who I said I simply didn't like. His techniques were ones which I did find manipulative. As I explained to a wing over coffee yesterday, even if you told me I could learn Ross Jeffrie's techniques and have endless women within six months, I don't think I'd really want to go through with it. So yes, if it was he she was referring too, then there are elements within the PUA community who I would agree could do with looking again at their techniques (for the record, though, I don't have a problem with older guys who get with younger girls, or indeed vice versa. And I'm 26 years old. If they connect, and get on, then that's great. My problem with Jeffries is that I expect his younger girls aren't necessarily acting through their own free will, although precisely what 'own free will' constitutes is an abstract concept which I won't go into right now).

HOWEVER... I then began to dismantle her argument, and explain that the real meaning of becoming a PUA isn't to manipulate women. Sometimes it is to manipulate a social situation, which means responding in such a way that will achieve your results as per theories proposing how social dynamics operate. But more often, the meaning of The Game is to help guys fundamentally reconstruct themselves to become their best selves, or selves they are comfortable with and happy with.

And this was the bit she really didn't like. Because my next proposition was that guys aren't all testosterone driven, sex crazed maniacs who will do whatever it takes to twist a woman into bed. Rather, I suggested that guys have the potential to be just as vulnerable, just as self conscious, just as needy and just as fragile as any woman. We're constantly bombarded with messages telling us we're not good enough, that we need to buy this or do that or look like this in order to become acceptable. And for a lot of guys, this was tremendously difficult to take, because they weren't any of them things.

What was wrong, I asked her, of guys coming together to help each other along, and to help each other work this stuff out? What was wrong with guys developing messages that told them positive things? What was wrong with guys working hard on themselves to the point that their internal voice tells them, not 'You are not good enough', but rather 'you are good enough, and you can do what you want if you apply yourself, are motivated, and take action'?

She didn't have an answer, and, I hope, was regretful she had picked an argument with me on it in the first place. My ex's friends were quite girly people, but this girl was a little more butch, for want of a better word. I was the only guy in the room, me and 8 or 9 girls, one of whom was my girlfriend at the time. We'd had a drink, and she decided to grill me on the basis that I am a guy, and she had a problem with her characature vision of the PUA community.

In a way, I wish I could let her see this thread. Perhaps then she'd realise that the PUA community isn't a bunch of illiterate guys engaging in mutual masturbation over their self fantasies about success with women, but rather genuinely thoughtful people seeking a better understanding of attraction and society.

I'm glad she did argue with me though - and I hope I put her very firmly in her place. As I've said elsewhere, I've got nothing against women's lib. I am broadly a supporter, and some very good female friends of mine are highly active and vociferous campaigners in its favour. But I also think there is some scope for men's lib. Women need liberating from artificial barriers imposed on them in society, and we as men have a duty to take note of this as well.

But I think there are things men need liberating from as well.

I feel I've rambled a little here... But I hope I've made myself roughly clear!

Very good post.

Why is it that PUAs always have to justify themselves? Being in the community you forget how harshly its looked on in general.

Remember Gambler on Dragons Den. Despite his companies huge profits he was laughed off.
Or the c4 doc I know most of you have seen. The filmmaker said his objective was 'to make a programme about geeks trying to get girls'- hahaha look at the nerds.

So it's ok to use money and/or looks to attract girls but learning a bit of charm and self confidence is bad?

Or do people really believe you can hypno/voodoo some unwilling girl into bed after a quick read of 'The Game'?

I think Mycroft is right. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with going out and chatting up attractive girls - most girls (even ones that are taken) enjoy being chatted up and spending time with a fun and interesting person (the PUA). The whole process is perfectly innnocent and is not forcing the woman to do anything she doesn't want to do. Unlike, say, rape. Or NLP.

NLP is something I wouldn't be comfortable doing. It's all very well using it for a laugh, like getting someone to shout "bollocks" very loudly in front of their mum, but to use it to manipulate others' feelings in order to get some pussy? Questionable...that's probably the kindest thing I can say.

I think as long as you go out and be a socially awesome guy then you're not doing anything objectionable. Religious or feministic types might argue that by obeying your sexual urges and going on the search for hot girls that you're being immoral and sexist. I say so be it. I'm a man - I want to have fully consented sex and fulfilling mutual relationships with a variety of beautiful women. It doesn't cost anyone any money and more importantly, if done correctly, no one gets hurt, so it can't be a bad thing.

Oh and anyone who sneers at someone who relies on more than just looks or money to get girls is just jealous. They'd love to be able to do half the shit we do. Some guys who I know get a result in a club fairly consistently couldn't walk up to a girl in the street/a bar/the library and leave with a phone number, or even have a good conversation with her.

I'm not going to lose sleep over it anyway. If people think that me being a PUA or socially awesome is immoral or geeky, they are wrong.

Well i somewhat disagree, as long as there legal ill sleep with any attractive woman who im attracted to, as for biology it isnt wrong, if they can bear children then in the law of the jungle its legal "End of" its just yet again society telling and dictating the law upon others how they should live morals and all that bullshit, but on a desert island stranded were no rules applied im sure many crimes you consider weird would happen all the time become un normal to not comit them, law stops people from acting out those desires but it doesnt stop one feeling those desires,
Like i said as long as im attracted to a girl and she of legal age i will not stop nature whatever my age, whether shes 18 and im 88
You just gotta take responsibbillity for what you do without giving a fuck what anyone else thinks when it involves your happyness.
Remember "What people detest in others is also in them to"
I sail through this world making no appologies for my behaviour,
In a hundred years whos gunna give a fuck or remember what you did?

Peace brothers love Will.

I agree i wouldnt use NLP to get a woman, but unfortunatly every one is manipulative its why we have language, we manipulate people all the time, a beutifull woman dresses up to look nice she gets responses from men, "Thats manipulation" regardless of conciouse or unconciously being aware, we are on some level manipulating people people all the time, when i ask someone to pass me something and they do ive manipulated them.
You cant hide from it only learn it and be carefull with your actions.

Dont worry, its not a battle of morals just have fun be responsible, understand that your human and was designed to be manipulative in order to ensure pro creation, safety and an easier life and then deal with it
lifes to short to give a fuck about other people moral rigtiousness and gloriousness just live for the moment and youll be fine, you might even find that it will inspire others to see your point of view becouse they wont be resisting your preaching

Will xxx

Covert - awesome post Brother - exactly what I was getting at. The girls are quick to shoot down the idea of PU, bad-mouth it and say how unethical it is -but as you so elequently put...

[quote=CovertOperation;13011]
In a way, I wish I could let her see this thread. Perhaps then she'd realise that the PUA community isn't a bunch of illiterate guys engaging in mutual masturbation over their self fantasies about success with women, but rather genuinely thoughtful people seeking a better understanding of attraction and society.
QUOTE]

The fact that we do discuss this so much and are so aware of it is yet another reason why this Forum fucking rocks - and enforces the ideas that PU is about reflecting on ourselves and how we and others percieve us; it's a lifestyle - not a quick way to 'trick' girls into bed.

This Forum rocks - love you guys

Nice dude, and nice rank!

To get to the top, you gotta start from the bottom.

In my case, the very bottom...!!