Going to the scientific argument, I ask you this question. Do you consider god part of the natural world? If he is, and is thus able to intervene in the natural world, he must, by definition, obey the laws of nature (or "science") which he, by the admission of every faith going, does not.

So he must be supernatural, able to disobey the laws of science. Surely such a being could not operate on the natural plain. Without wanting to get too philosophical (that's the K Dawg's job!), how can a supernatural being intervene on natural events? In order to do so he would, at least in part, have to obey the laws of science.

As for the bee flying, we do in fact know how the bee is able to fly. Physics dictated that its mass was too great for its small wings to enable it to fly. Obviously it can fly. Did the scientific community give up and attribute it to some supernatural being? Of course not. They conducted investigations, made observations and, using evidence rather than superstition, came up with the solution (it's something to do with the bee's flight muscles - insect muscles are superior to ours in virtually every single way).

On to atheism. Yes, it is a hopeless point of view. But does that make it wrong? Should we turn to religion simply because we cannot contemplate the truth? Read my comment about religion being for those of too weak a mind to accept this bleak truth (present company accepted). This is exactly what I mean - just because atheism is unpleasant to behold does not mean that it is wrong.

And as for hope, we may have to agree to disagree here Dolphin. I, for one, went through a period of this realisation before I even saw Fight Club. It was brought on, predictably, by a girl. I was 15 and it was your typical teenage "first love" thing. I knew from the moment I met her. I spent 2 years madly in love with her but unable to get her, sustained by this false mistress of "hope". It hurt. For 2 years I lay awake thinking about her, until one day it came to me. I simply gave up hope of ever being with her. It took a while to accept, but as soon as I did, it was like a storm cloud had lifted. I was free, and it was wonderful. I've not looked back since.

Religion, for me, is too implausible, and too predictable a path of human reasoning and superstition over the ages. Belief in a supernatural power was a natural progression for a caveman to explain the things he could not understand, and to take responsibility for things he did wrong. Supposing Mr Alpha Caveman makes an error that puts the tribe in danger. Ordinarily he would be ostracised and his genes would die out. But Mr Caveman is cunning. He blames the supernatural being, and out of fear of the superbeing (and respect for the alpha caveman) the tribe goes along with it. Admittedly, this is a fairly spurious scenario, but it's easy to see how something like this could propogate into the flood of religious beliefs that came along in history.

We scoff now at the ancient Romans and Greeks for believing in those gods, but at the time, these beliefs were held in highest esteem. No-one dared to contradict them, and everyone was as sure of them as you are of your faith Dolphin. People are prepared to believe in whatever fits the 3 criteria earlier - look at scientology for chrissake. I have a certain level of respect for the bigger world religions, but this one is an absolute joke. It's proof that people will believe anything as long as it fits the 3 rules and offers them hope.

I'm not the sort of person who has a disdain for those of a religious disposition. The majority of religious sorts are perfectly nice people, reasonably well learned and open minded. But then there are others which really fucking piss me off. They are split into 2 camps:

1) People who are almost willfully ignorant of everything we have learned. You know the sorts (found mostly, it seems, in America) - trying to force creationism and Jesus Camp on children in an attempt to drive them away from the evil of science, evolution, altheism, homosexuality, heavy metal music, women...etc.

2) People who force their beliefs on others. I include Richard Dawkins in this. These are the Jehova's Witnesses, Muslim and Christian extremists and missionaries of the world. These people have (as far as I am concerned) absolutely no evidence whatsoever for their belief system, and yet they are coming at me, whose beliefs are based on facts and evidence and hundreds of years of scientific investigation, and judging me. Telling me that my beliefs are wrong. This on its own is irritating enough, but it is these people who get the hump when the tables are turned and their religion is criticised and metaphorically torn apart.
I say I mention Richard Dawkins in this. Here is a man, an atheist, who published the excellent "The God Delusion" and is a big fish in the Atheist Alliance. Fine. My gripe is that he is no better than the god-botherers he attacks. Remember the bus campaign?

"There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and get on with your lives"

The incessant rants on television? The interviewing of clergy with the specific intention of telling them why they are wrong? He's brilliant when it comes to defending atheism. I can't think of anyone better to do this for us. But when he attacks religion, he's no better than the religions who have been judging us all this time.

I'm just grateful, much as I dislike Britain for a number of reasons, that at least it is a place of tolerance for whatever beliefs you want to hold (as long as they're not too extreme).

Ok, rant over. Back to the threads about picking up girls for me!