eckhart tolle
 

I thought I'd make a new thread for eckhart tolle as the long term monogamous relationship material?! post seems to be descending into tolle based discussion and is veering away from the original post.

I like some of the things he says but I think some of the other things is total bollocks. Also I like some picasso paintings but I don't like others are you saying I can't criticise things because you identify with some of it?

I would hate to live in such a totalitarian world (unless it's based on science hey dolphin ;) )

I fucking hate Damien Hurst but if you liked his work i'd still criticise it

What?!! Based on what evidence?

Yes please

Then enlighten me! I've managed to say what I thought he was on about but you keep telling me it's amazing without telling me what 'it' actually is.

What I got from it was that don't focus on past experiences, live in the now but since I didn't get to the end because of his annoying german voice he might have said something else but no one seems to want to actually tell me what these things are just tell me I should think they are brilliant and he is immune from criticism. Maybe I should give the book a go instead of audio but no one has come up with any reason for me to give it another go.

Enter the finned one..

Hmmm, I've not read any Tolle, but this looks like it could be a good thread if we are discussing love and spirituality.

I'm tempted to stay out of this one though, to discuss these topics you need to have a good level of mutual respect and manners as the topics relate to peoples personal beliefs etc.

For some reason I think we've not been living up to these recently.

Its a shame and I feel disappointed with myself today.

i can just hear tolle's little chuckle as he reads through this thread

I don't like this whole "you can't question me because I believe in X"
I could believe in murdering children or that the mystery method is the right way to do things but I can't defend myself by saying you can't question me it's my beliefs.

This is censorship and this forum would be dead if this prevailed. My beliefs oppose yours in some ways but i'm not supposed to express them but you can express yours? Hardly fair.

So excuse me if I believe in free speech and debate, feel free to question me, in fact I support your right to and will defend it but don't tell me I can't.



But then I would be dead or a robot? Or are you trying to say I should react without thinking much like a fly would? I don't see how this can work for a human, expand on this please.

What's the pain body? You just seem to have copied and pasted that.
What I think he's trying to say is don't hold on to past emotional pain which I try not to anyway.

That's the main thing I thought he was trying to say when I said

haha.

Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing your omelette version K. I should probably do the same, but not sure if I can face it!

From what I hear so far (having skimmed his book – for good reason not ploughing through it), some things to be aware of which K will no doubt pick up on:

-the idea of 'being in the moment' is not new. See Taoism or buddhism – thousand year old religions. To adam and others, if you want an introductory book on 'being in the moment', read the Tao of Pooh – this might also help your game too (everyone loves Pooh) ;) Anyways, its not a bad message, so if it helps then good. But I don't think its right patronize people into thinking if they don't 'get' Toole's message they are missing something.

-stating things which are impossible to test. This doesn't make them true.

Hopefully we can get something useful from this. Maybe if K summarizes the reasonable messages to half a side of A4 he should sell it for royalties. Karma. X

I strongly recommend meditation regardless of the text.

Fair enough if you can't be bothered to answer my questions then i'll wait for Kowalski's omelette.

I think I have got to tolles main message and agree with it.

These are all essentially boiled down to don't focus on past experiences, live in the now and I agree with them.

The other bit about

I didn't identify with.

For something so exciting and interesting I thought you might be able to or even want to share what you got from it. I heard this bit and didn't take much from it, you seem to have taken a lot from it, yet you won't or can't explain it.

The thing that gets me is what's this other thing other than the mind?
Does he call it something or describe it in some way? Or is it indescribable?
Is it the sub conscious? To me that's still part of the mind.

This is just me thinking from the top of my head i'm not even too sure myself but...

I think he might be referring to the lateralization of brain function, although the way i'm going to describe it is a simple way of looking at things as these things can be bilateral.

He may be stating that the left brain is the mind, the part that governs the more analytical side that calculates, retrieves facts that sort of thing.

And that you need to get away from that part to the more chilled out non time conscious day dream right side that controls visual distances and subconscious things you don't have to think about.

I've experienced the left right shift from drawing exercises and it's pretty weird, also my perception of time went crazy. It taught me how to shut out the analytical part which sounds a lot like what you are referring to.


I'd be extremely interested in what K has to say on this as it has a lot to do with the ego and the self and he's probably the one who has been exposed to the most material on this.

Well this is my first proper post on this forum and it has to be here because if this topic were a woman she'd be my perfect 10.

I'm half way through The Power of Now and am no expert on Tolle at all but I find it fascinating and I think there's at least some good advice in there. Even though I've read half of his book, I couldn't say I fully understand what I'm reading. I haven't decided how profound or nonsensical it is yet. I say this partly as a disclaimer so it's clear I'm not fanatically defending Tolle and also as an explanation of why I want to discuss his ideas.

It's obvious from all your posts you know a lot about psychology. I can maybe explain Tolle's point of view here.

To address your point first, there is some evidence that people should trust their gut instincts more than they do - and that they should correspondingly think a bit less sometimes. Some research on this can be found here and I think there are quite a few studies showing similar results. Tolle accepts that of course you need to consciously think sometimes but it should be thinking that is focussed in the present moment and on the task at hand, not endlessly pondering different possibilities that might play themselves out in the future. His way of phrasing it will naturally be different to the psychologists' because he's arriving at his conclusions in a different way but the gist of what they're saying sounds quite similar to me.

That said, Tolle is also getting at something else, which is probably more important. You shouldn't identify with, or create an identity for yourself, out of your thoughts. There are many ways you can do this without being aware of it. For example, you might believe in your thoughts too much. Anyone with a limiting belief is arguably identifying with a thought that they are making real in their mind. Alternatively, you might base your self-esteem or your sense of self on something you did/thought/felt in the past. Maybe you're the guy who always got top marks in maths, or the guy who's a virgin at 25. These identities might be based on true stories and they might be positive or negative but Tolle argues it's not a good idea to get too invested in them in any case.

Yes I took it to be a spiritual metaphor to tie together a lot of other ideas that I can't remember now. I didn't find it all that useful when I read it either but maybe it would help me remember all those ideas...

Yeah you're right it's not a new idea, though Tolle himself does point to the ancient religions and says he's just rephrasing the same messages for today.

I will check out your book recommendations and am curious why you advocate meditation. What have your experiences been with it? I'm also reading Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn, which seems more about that than the Power of Now is.

And I agree Tolle sometimes seems a bit patronising and full of himself, which strikes me as ironic.

I think Tolle is talking about something he calls awareness. It's a sense of being aware (without thinking about it) of what your mind is thinking, of what your body is feeling and of being present and connected to everything else in the world. He talks about the watcher of your thoughts, who is aware of what your mind is thinking without identifying with the mind and thoughts.

I'd be lying if I said I understood this myself, and it might all be nonsense. However I think it's an idea worth investigating, not least because it echoes what meditators have been saying for millenia. Meditators often try to observe their thoughts without engaging with them. Sometimes they try to focus entirely on bodily sensations, like breathing, which calms and quietens their mind. I guess Tolle is talking about a similar state when he talks about awareness but it's an intangible and hard to understand thing.

I agree with some of what he says but with the claims to have had an awakening, saying our feelings tell us what is true (which handily stops any critical objections) and the vague language makes me incredibly sceptical, especially the parts that tell you not to question what he says I find pretty scary.

I do think you can do things without thinking them through I don't agree that you should shut out the rest of your thought process, your feeling are not always right. Lots of times something might feel true because you have been conditioned to believe it or want to believe it. People feel different things but we can't all be right with our feelings. There's a Malcolm Gladwell book about it called Blink. I'm glad you've joined this debate Thug it's better than Adam's cut and pastes ;)

I agree that you shouldn't identify with, or create an identity for yourself, out of your thoughts. I think I mention that in this post
http://www.puaforum.co.uk/seduction-...-thoughts.html
Also Kowalski mentions something about "what Sartre calls your being-for-others."

I don't know too much about psychology i'm just sceptical and while there is wisdom in there this seems very new age and preachy with a lot of baggage attached.

To me he seems to be describing different parts of the self, your thinking part and the observing part. This is a good thing to be aware of but what I don't agree with is the good observing part vs the thinking part, like there is a conflict that he can fix because he has seen the light.
The ego seems to have been made into an almost religious devil figure by him.

If you’re not the ego, how do each of us maintain an identity at all? Who’s controlling your mind? We obviously do. We make many choices on a daily and moment to moment basis. For example, minutes ago I just decided to write this post and not go to bed. How does Tolle reconcile this after having dismissed both the ego and individuality?

In accepting the now, he says a person in the now does not judge the situation as wrong but accepts it as just being the now.
Tolle either has to give up his view of the now as acceptance or give up his condemnation of humanity as insane and raping the planet and accept that it's the now.
Also this fear of the future seems inconsistent with his answer to evolve into a new species, that's forward thinking not now.

I think he's got a point but he's got this extreme duality that thinking is bad and feeling is good. I don't think you can distill it down to that it's more complex. It seems to me like it's shock tactics by taking things to the extreme end and disavowing your thoughts. I think be aware of them and how they work but get rid of them altogether and evolve into a new species sounds too far fetched.

Even being aware of observing our thoughts is still a form of thought. If we didn't all think then I wouldn't be typing this because I couldn't think of the words and no one would have invented the microchip. You can't feel an idea and he can't feel to write a book.

So if this is what I am picking up and I am un schooled in philosophy except in my own thoughts and various things i've been exposed to.
Then I'd like to know what Kowalski finds from all this because I can see similarities between other things I have vague knowledge of, duality etc but since I don't fully grasp all these yet I probably can't compare them as well. K has read a lot more on the subject than me.

Although it has made me very interested in the self and the ego and I'm going to have to look further into all this.

I think this clip sums up Tolles teachings quite well
YouTube - Spaceballs - We're at now-now.

It's quite handy that you can't question it you just have to accept it, it gives anyone who reads it and believes a pretty simple mechanism for dismissing criticism or if they have doubts getting rid of them. It's almost like a conspiracy mindset where you can just say something like "that's what they want you to think".

I'm pretty concerned about it to be honest, I think people will watch blueprint and think I should read up on this tolle guy. Tyler has filtered out the crap but I think people less well versed in Philosophy and accustomed to critical thinking are going to believe every word he says.

I have heard about half of it and it's got a lot of spiritual padding and vagueness to it, with some contradictions which you fail to address camarda where he thinks to reach conclusions. I don't think i'm going to be swayed by the rest of it but I'll give it go some time but I have more important things to read than something recommended by Oprah.

I think i'll wait for thug's or kowalski's input I don't think i'll get anything other than the standard "you can't understand you're thinking" line from you.

I've already explained the good points but i'm not going to blindly accept everything he has to say all you do is say the same thing over and over.

Yes he has a whiney voice but if I was that opposed to him why do I keep pointing out his good points? Why did I agree with the part thug explained about identifying with a limiting belief and identifying with a thought that they are making real in their mind?
If I'm so hostile why am I doing this? You're the one who tells me I don't and will not understand dismisses the whole thing with a few lines.

It seems to me like you've just taken the whole thing and accepted it all as fact, have you? Or are there some points you don't agree with? Do you have you're own opinion on this? Or are you just going to keep saying feeling is the only way and that I don't understand because if you are I might as well just copy and paste your previous comments again and again.

For example do you agree with him when he says that... the start of the cosmos was when consciousness took on an outer form by creating and infusing itself in the physical cosmos. Then this consciousness lost awareness of itself as divine and humans identified themselves not with their inner divinity but with their outer physicalness.

Or this?

Males are generally more identified with their mind and females with their bodies and about five thousand years ago the mind took over. (that sounds like something Duncan would say)

Don't worry I know you don't like debate a simple yes/no will do, all I can tell from your responses are that obi wan has taken over and I should trust my feelings.... luke

I will read the book, you've pointed out the main teachings which he gets to pretty quickly. You've had all this time to explain further ones but I don't see any or won't I understand oh enlightened one or can't you express it because that would envolve thinking?

For someone so well versed in this you have very little to say on the matter

This is quite a funny discussion between Tom and Camarda (Adam?). I think a lot of it boils down to your different styles of thinking about and explaining ideas. I tend to agree with Tom that the tone of the book is wishy-washy, arrogant and pretentious, that Tolle takes things a little far and that some of what he says might not even make sense. I tend to agree with Adam that it's a very worthwhile book to read and is probably a lot more coherent than it seems at first glance.

Tolle is not saying thinking is bad full stop. I have the book here so I'll try to explain it better. In Chapter 1: You are not your mind, he says the following.
Then, in the same chapter he talks about trusting feelings rather than thoughts. He is not saying everyone's feelings are always absolutely correct. It's just that if you want to know the state of your own mind, and if there is a conflict between how you think you feel and how your body tells you it's feeling, then you should trust your body rather than what your mind seems to be thinking. Often we are not conscious of all of our thoughts: we can feel nervous while thinking we are not worried for example, but the feeling reflects something that is going on in your head even if you aren't aware of the thoughts.

In Chapter 3: Moving deeply into the present, he defines "clock time" as time used in a practical way with a focus on the task at hand, and "psychological time" as "identification with your past and continuous compulsive projection into the future". Clock time is essential for everyone, whereas psychological time is always harmful. Clock time includes thinking about logical patterns, science and planning events as well as learning from the past, as long as the focus is on the present moment. This last bit is not totally clear to me tbh but he gives some examples:

That turned into a longer quote than I intended but I'm a sucker for good writing! Anyway these ideas of Tolle's seem ironically very thought-provoking.

Since your repeating I might as well just save my time and paste some responses

and yes adam I only asked you about the cosmos...

Also what's all this stuff about how you have experienced more pain therefore that's why I don't get it? (even though as I've said many times I've pointed out the good points and you haven't come up with any others)

You have no idea how much pain I've experienced and in fact your comment goes against what you've been preaching all this time, you're prejudging.

I'm not going to prejudge you on this because I don't believe in it and I don't want to get into some weird kind of pain comparison contest but my life hasn't been idyllic, far from it but I didn't need to get spiritual to sort it out.

Oh yeh and to respond to sensitivethug I know he's not saying don't think all the time but I think he puts too much emphasis on it. Maybe it's because he's trying to drive his point home but I think it's being aware of your thought processes and learning which to ignore and which to keep.

I would recommend A New Earth. My main man Will leant me a copy and I've been reading it on and off for a while. I'd say it has helped me to examine my thought process and stop worrying about things I have no control over. Some of it didn't make much sense to me and some of it I didn't agree with but like anything in the mind, body and spirit niche you have to do the things that are right for you.

Eckhart
 

Most people are doing what Tolle is talking about, "Your beliefs and oppinnions are apart of the I, I am, I believe" instead of being the awarness before the thoughts, this is major if you look at all the previouse conflicts of man, to go against ones oppinnions is not to go against a thought which is irrelivant and not his true self but infact you are threatening the life of that persons oppinnion and belief which is his identity, controlled by the ego,

It works for me but regardless i dont look at the words in the book i feel them, Like Eckhart said "The words are simply guidnece signs to the acheiving destination which is inner peace"
a word brings in a mental image when spoken, so try to feel his message behind the words instead of logically trying to understand.

Becouse all oppinnions are just oppinnions only thoughts and no one cares about them apart from the ego which is the responsibillity for mass killing dictators, wars and petty conflicts online about "I Think this, I Know this, Im right"
Take away all of the bullshit all your background, appearence, then we are all the same conciousness, just like a body creates the same enery for all other different emotions.


Love Will.

it is only few that path trough the narrow gate

some people know the truth
some people seek the truth
and some people think if your not lying your telling the truth

instead of fighting the bad
praise the good

abraham-hicks

I'll take the good and disgard and criticise the bad, ignorance for me is not an option.

I don't understand why everyone has a such a boner for tolle, It's seems like people think you have to accept everything he says like some kind of religious scripture. If you criticise him with valid points you don't get any responses just whimsical mutterings.