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Default 28-01-2010, 02:19 AM

I agree with some of what he says but with the claims to have had an awakening, saying our feelings tell us what is true (which handily stops any critical objections) and the vague language makes me incredibly sceptical, especially the parts that tell you not to question what he says I find pretty scary.

I do think you can do things without thinking them through I don't agree that you should shut out the rest of your thought process, your feeling are not always right. Lots of times something might feel true because you have been conditioned to believe it or want to believe it. People feel different things but we can't all be right with our feelings. There's a Malcolm Gladwell book about it called Blink. I'm glad you've joined this debate Thug it's better than Adam's cut and pastes

I agree that you shouldn't identify with, or create an identity for yourself, out of your thoughts. I think I mention that in this post
http://www.puaforum.co.uk/seduction-...-thoughts.html
Also Kowalski mentions something about "what Sartre calls your being-for-others."

I don't know too much about psychology i'm just sceptical and while there is wisdom in there this seems very new age and preachy with a lot of baggage attached.

To me he seems to be describing different parts of the self, your thinking part and the observing part. This is a good thing to be aware of but what I don't agree with is the good observing part vs the thinking part, like there is a conflict that he can fix because he has seen the light.
The ego seems to have been made into an almost religious devil figure by him.

If you’re not the ego, how do each of us maintain an identity at all? Who’s controlling your mind? We obviously do. We make many choices on a daily and moment to moment basis. For example, minutes ago I just decided to write this post and not go to bed. How does Tolle reconcile this after having dismissed both the ego and individuality?

In accepting the now, he says a person in the now does not judge the situation as wrong but accepts it as just being the now.
Tolle either has to give up his view of the now as acceptance or give up his condemnation of humanity as insane and raping the planet and accept that it's the now.
Also this fear of the future seems inconsistent with his answer to evolve into a new species, that's forward thinking not now.

I think he's got a point but he's got this extreme duality that thinking is bad and feeling is good. I don't think you can distill it down to that it's more complex. It seems to me like it's shock tactics by taking things to the extreme end and disavowing your thoughts. I think be aware of them and how they work but get rid of them altogether and evolve into a new species sounds too far fetched.

Even being aware of observing our thoughts is still a form of thought. If we didn't all think then I wouldn't be typing this because I couldn't think of the words and no one would have invented the microchip. You can't feel an idea and he can't feel to write a book.

So if this is what I am picking up and I am un schooled in philosophy except in my own thoughts and various things i've been exposed to.
Then I'd like to know what Kowalski finds from all this because I can see similarities between other things I have vague knowledge of, duality etc but since I don't fully grasp all these yet I probably can't compare them as well. K has read a lot more on the subject than me.

Although it has made me very interested in the self and the ego and I'm going to have to look further into all this.

I think this clip sums up Tolles teachings quite well
YouTube - Spaceballs - We're at now-now.


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"

Last edited by Tom; 28-01-2010 at 02:29 AM.
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(#12)
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Default 28-01-2010, 12:06 PM

It's quite handy that you can't question it you just have to accept it, it gives anyone who reads it and believes a pretty simple mechanism for dismissing criticism or if they have doubts getting rid of them. It's almost like a conspiracy mindset where you can just say something like "that's what they want you to think".

I'm pretty concerned about it to be honest, I think people will watch blueprint and think I should read up on this tolle guy. Tyler has filtered out the crap but I think people less well versed in Philosophy and accustomed to critical thinking are going to believe every word he says.

I have heard about half of it and it's got a lot of spiritual padding and vagueness to it, with some contradictions which you fail to address camarda where he thinks to reach conclusions. I don't think i'm going to be swayed by the rest of it but I'll give it go some time but I have more important things to read than something recommended by Oprah.

I think i'll wait for thug's or kowalski's input I don't think i'll get anything other than the standard "you can't understand you're thinking" line from you.


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"
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(#13)
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Default 28-01-2010, 03:00 PM

I've already explained the good points but i'm not going to blindly accept everything he has to say all you do is say the same thing over and over.

Yes he has a whiney voice but if I was that opposed to him why do I keep pointing out his good points? Why did I agree with the part thug explained about identifying with a limiting belief and identifying with a thought that they are making real in their mind?
If I'm so hostile why am I doing this? You're the one who tells me I don't and will not understand dismisses the whole thing with a few lines.

It seems to me like you've just taken the whole thing and accepted it all as fact, have you? Or are there some points you don't agree with? Do you have you're own opinion on this? Or are you just going to keep saying feeling is the only way and that I don't understand because if you are I might as well just copy and paste your previous comments again and again.

For example do you agree with him when he says that... the start of the cosmos was when consciousness took on an outer form by creating and infusing itself in the physical cosmos. Then this consciousness lost awareness of itself as divine and humans identified themselves not with their inner divinity but with their outer physicalness.

Or this?

Males are generally more identified with their mind and females with their bodies and about five thousand years ago the mind took over. (that sounds like something Duncan would say)

Don't worry I know you don't like debate a simple yes/no will do, all I can tell from your responses are that obi wan has taken over and I should trust my feelings.... luke

I will read the book, you've pointed out the main teachings which he gets to pretty quickly. You've had all this time to explain further ones but I don't see any or won't I understand oh enlightened one or can't you express it because that would envolve thinking?

For someone so well versed in this you have very little to say on the matter


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"

Last edited by Tom; 28-01-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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Default 28-01-2010, 05:46 PM

This is quite a funny discussion between Tom and Camarda (Adam?). I think a lot of it boils down to your different styles of thinking about and explaining ideas. I tend to agree with Tom that the tone of the book is wishy-washy, arrogant and pretentious, that Tolle takes things a little far and that some of what he says might not even make sense. I tend to agree with Adam that it's a very worthwhile book to read and is probably a lot more coherent than it seems at first glance.

Tolle is not saying thinking is bad full stop. I have the book here so I'll try to explain it better. In Chapter 1: You are not your mind, he says the following.
Quote:
The mind is a superb instrument if used rightly [...] It is there to be used for a specific task and when the task is completed, you lay it down. As it is, I would say about 80 to 90 percent of most people's thinking is not only repetitive and useless, but because of its dysfunctional and often negative nature, much of it is also harmful.
Then, in the same chapter he talks about trusting feelings rather than thoughts. He is not saying everyone's feelings are always absolutely correct. It's just that if you want to know the state of your own mind, and if there is a conflict between how you think you feel and how your body tells you it's feeling, then you should trust your body rather than what your mind seems to be thinking. Often we are not conscious of all of our thoughts: we can feel nervous while thinking we are not worried for example, but the feeling reflects something that is going on in your head even if you aren't aware of the thoughts.

In Chapter 3: Moving deeply into the present, he defines "clock time" as time used in a practical way with a focus on the task at hand, and "psychological time" as "identification with your past and continuous compulsive projection into the future". Clock time is essential for everyone, whereas psychological time is always harmful. Clock time includes thinking about logical patterns, science and planning events as well as learning from the past, as long as the focus is on the present moment. This last bit is not totally clear to me tbh but he gives some examples:

Quote:
If you made a mistake in the past and learn from it now, you are using clock time. On the other hand, if you dwell on it mentally and self-criticism, remorse or guilt come up, then you are making the mistake into 'me' and 'mine': you make it part of your sense of self, and it has become psychological time, which is always linked to a false sense of identity. Nonforgiveness necessarily implies a heavy burden of psychological time.

If you set yourself a goal and work towards it, you are using clock time. You are aware of where you want to go but you honour and give your fullest attention to the step that you are taking at this moment. If you then become excessively focussed on the goal, perhaps because you are seeking happiness, fulfillment, or a more complete sense of self in it, the Now is no longer honoured. It becomes reduced to a mere stepping stone to the future, with no intrinsic value. Clock time then turns into psychological time. Your life's journey is no longer an adventure, just an obsessive need to arrive, to attain to 'make it'.
That turned into a longer quote than I intended but I'm a sucker for good writing! Anyway these ideas of Tolle's seem ironically very thought-provoking.
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Default 01-02-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by camarda View Post
You have missed the concepts he brings and instead talked about the fucking cosmos.
Since your repeating I might as well just save my time and paste some responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
I've already explained the good points but i'm not going to blindly accept everything he has to say all you do is say the same thing over and over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
You've had all this time to explain further ones but I don't see any?
and yes adam I only asked you about the cosmos...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
It seems to me like you've just taken the whole thing and accepted it all as fact, have you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
Are there some points you don't agree with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
For example do you agree with him when he says that... the start of the cosmos was when consciousness took on an outer form by creating and infusing itself in the physical cosmos. Then this consciousness lost awareness of itself as divine and humans identified themselves not with their inner divinity but with their outer physicalness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
Or this?

Males are generally more identified with their mind and females with their bodies and about five thousand years ago the mind took over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
Don't worry I know you don't like debate a simple yes/no will do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
For someone so well versed in this you have very little to say on the matter
Also what's all this stuff about how you have experienced more pain therefore that's why I don't get it? (even though as I've said many times I've pointed out the good points and you haven't come up with any others)

You have no idea how much pain I've experienced and in fact your comment goes against what you've been preaching all this time, you're prejudging.

I'm not going to prejudge you on this because I don't believe in it and I don't want to get into some weird kind of pain comparison contest but my life hasn't been idyllic, far from it but I didn't need to get spiritual to sort it out.


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"
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Default 01-02-2010, 01:13 PM

Oh yeh and to respond to sensitivethug I know he's not saying don't think all the time but I think he puts too much emphasis on it. Maybe it's because he's trying to drive his point home but I think it's being aware of your thought processes and learning which to ignore and which to keep.


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"
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Default 01-02-2010, 02:35 PM

I would recommend A New Earth. My main man Will leant me a copy and I've been reading it on and off for a while. I'd say it has helped me to examine my thought process and stop worrying about things I have no control over. Some of it didn't make much sense to me and some of it I didn't agree with but like anything in the mind, body and spirit niche you have to do the things that are right for you.
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(#18)
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Default Eckhart - 05-02-2010, 09:36 PM

Most people are doing what Tolle is talking about, "Your beliefs and oppinnions are apart of the I, I am, I believe" instead of being the awarness before the thoughts, this is major if you look at all the previouse conflicts of man, to go against ones oppinnions is not to go against a thought which is irrelivant and not his true self but infact you are threatening the life of that persons oppinnion and belief which is his identity, controlled by the ego,

It works for me but regardless i dont look at the words in the book i feel them, Like Eckhart said "The words are simply guidnece signs to the acheiving destination which is inner peace"
a word brings in a mental image when spoken, so try to feel his message behind the words instead of logically trying to understand.

Becouse all oppinnions are just oppinnions only thoughts and no one cares about them apart from the ego which is the responsibillity for mass killing dictators, wars and petty conflicts online about "I Think this, I Know this, Im right"
Take away all of the bullshit all your background, appearence, then we are all the same conciousness, just like a body creates the same enery for all other different emotions.


Love Will.


Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know

I prefer a good cigar, and a bad woman
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Default 08-02-2010, 06:47 PM

it is only few that path trough the narrow gate

some people know the truth
some people seek the truth
and some people think if your not lying your telling the truth

instead of fighting the bad
praise the good

abraham-hicks
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(#20)
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Default 09-02-2010, 12:11 PM

I'll take the good and disgard and criticise the bad, ignorance for me is not an option.

I don't understand why everyone has a such a boner for tolle, It's seems like people think you have to accept everything he says like some kind of religious scripture. If you criticise him with valid points you don't get any responses just whimsical mutterings.


"Is it wrong for a man to love his guitar?"

"It is if he puts his balls between the strings, and strums himself to ecstasy!"
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