I'm struggling as to what to talk about after I open a girl in a bar. I live a little outside London.

I'm just really not sure what sort of things i'm supposed to be saying, and typically, the interactions are very short as I guess i'm boring the girl.

But i'm not sure how to create 'fun' out of thin air, and especially so early into the conversation.

Typically, after I open, i'll ask her who she is with, where she is going taht night. I might make some 'assumptions' about what she does for a job or something based on her look, but usually she'll be wanting to get away the whole time.

I've watched 'infield vids' to see if I can learn, but pretty much all vids are appraoches in America where is is typical to ask the girl where they are from and they talk about that for a while, or they are vids by americans filmed in like Russia, and they talk to the girls about their country and maybe joke aroud with her accent or something.

But I just live in a smallish town in between london and brighton. Everyone I speak too is from here, born and raised, so it would be odd to ask 'where are you from?' as the answer will always obviously be 'here'

What do people say/talk about after opening a girl, and how to make it 'fun' so that she doesn't get bored?

The problem isn't to do with what you're saying, but the attitude you have in relation to it.

The main word I use to describe my game is 'boring'. Because it is. I show up, say some standard as fuck small talk shit, then hang around for a long enough period of time.

Here's what's actually going on in your interactions. The girl isn't trying to get away because you aren't coming with interesting shit to talk about, she's trying to get away because you're uncomfortable. She can feel that, and it in turn makes her feel uncomfortable.

So how do you solve this problem? You can either learn to somehow become witty as fuck until you meet your own overly high standards, or you can simply just lower the fucking bar. You think that, say, Gaz from Geordie Shore is saying some witty Oscar Wilde shit before he takes some girl home and spreads his warts around? Hell no. He's saying the same stupid shit you are. Most people who just want to get laid and aren't selling stuff are.

Here's what you do. Go up to girls and get used to just going 'Alright, how's your night going?' and blah blah blah till you get used to sticking with it. Hang about for longer than feel comfortable. Will it be shit at first? Yeah. But once you get used to it it'll serve you for a lifetime

You're saying to just keep doing what i'm doing because once I start to feel comfortable with this small talk, she will sense that, and will be less likely to walk away?

I guess since I can't think of anything else (other than maybe a 'routine' which i've never tried to use before but has been suggested to me) then that's what i'll do. I am at a few hundred approaches now though and really don't fell 'that 'uncomfortable'

(but seriously, gaz from geordie shore doesn't have to even speak at all, lol. He's a big time celeb in the eyes of the young girls he bangs)

thanks for replying

Right, I was a bit summary in explaining this and I'm not entirely sure you see what I'm getting at, so I'll unpack it a little more.

In a sense, but there's a bit more to it than that. If anything I'm telling you to try less hard. A big reason why you struggle to keep these conversations going or struggle to have fun conversations is because you're 'trying to make it fun for the girl'. I saw this was a point of confusion when you responded to alexander83's FR. He was talking about self amusement - having fun himself regardless of whether other people are and independent of how his conversations go. You were confusing that with the opposite - attempting to amuse other people.

Feeling the need to be fun and entertaining is one of the most stifling things you can do, and it's palpable. Girls in bars get guys talking to them all the time. If you can just go out with a bunch of girls one night and watch the way guys come up to them. What you'll see is a bunch of guys doing exactly the same thing; trying to be entertaining. It has the opposite effect, and just comes across as stilted, insincere and try hard.

Conversely, when you stop 'trying to be fun' it doesn't come across that way. A sincere relaxed bit of small talk is infinitely preferable to some dude coming up to you and trying to entertain you in some attempt to make you like him. You come off as much more high status, because confident, boss ass people don't worry about entertaining others. And the grand irony is you're way more likely to have an actual fun conversation this way, because it's way easier for both you and the girl to relax and free associate. It's just like when you have a fun ass conversation with friends. They start off fairly dull and standard and they develop organically into really fun shit, because everyone's relaxed, no one's under pressure, no one freaks out if there's a lull and no one's tying to force shit.

Routines are the fucking worst man. The bit above about forced ass fun should make it kind of obvious why. It's just one size fits all, square peg in a round hole, forced fun. I mean try it if you like, but I'll say this. I've been doing this shit forever, I've gotten laid a bunch all around the world, none of it using routines. I know a bunch of people who get laid a lot, none of them use them either. I used to go out with girls on nights out all the time, every dude who went up pulling that shit got shot the fuck down. In fact, I'll challenge you to find one person who's pulling with a good degree of consistency who uses routines and isn't just trying to sell you some shit.

The vast vast majority of the time the reaction you'll get is mild amused curiosity with a vague undertone of 'something's a bit off' to the grossed out shut down you might to to someone who cold calls you and is clearly reading a script (because it's basically the same thing). Besides, you basically end up with the same problem of having to learn to sustain a goddamn conversation on your own. Typically from opening to getting laid you're spending at least 2-3 hours with a girl, and I don't care who you are, with that amount of time in the vast amount of different situations that can pop up, you're gonna run out of shit and then you're back to the same problem you started with.

Learning to be calm, self contained and stay in conversations for long periods of time really is the fundamentals of pickup. Using a routine is the equivalent of getting in an MMA cage having practise a cool ass spinning hook kick in your bedroom, but having no understanding of distance, footwork, stance, angles, etc. You might be able to do that one cool thing, but once that hasn't done the job, you're fucked.

That's not as much as you might think in the grad scheme of things. And I'm not saying you're all pissing yourself, palms are sweaty, mom's spaghetti kind of uncomfortable, but honsetly you wouldn't be running out of things to say if you didn't feel a decent bit of low level tension. You wouldn't even be thinking to ask the question 'how do I make it fun/what should I say' if you genuinely felt comfortable with yourself, your attractiveness, and your ability to hold a conversation. Plus you barely ever get girls spontaneously just walking off if you have a comfortable, non needy, relaxed ass vibe about you.

So work on the fundamental shit. Learn to hold a conversation and don't rely on any crutches to try to make a girl amused by you. Develop the self assurance to understand that a boring start or a lull in conversation is natural and fine, and should just be ridden out. The more basic you stay, and the longer you stay in interactions, the quicker the fact that you don't need anything other than yourself will get ingrained in your brain. The rest will follow naturally.

Oh, and:

I was just trying to think of a retard you gets laid a lot that you'd have heard of. Besides, he got on that show because promoters in newcastle knew him as a drunken fanny rat. He did just fine before he was famous and there are a million other idiots just like him who get laid without the need to be witty or clever.

thanks.

To be honest, I kind of struggle either way.

It's true that recently i've been trying hard to concentrate on the 'fun' element of it all.

But that's kind of because, before that, I was clearly guilty of boring them. I posted some field reports on another forum, and that was the main criticism. ''You are boring these girls to death. Be fun!!''

I'm clearly very stuck, and not entirely sure how to move past this!

As you say, learning to hold a conversation is the basics of it, but when I revert back to concentrating on not being 'fun'(which, as yuo say, comes across as try hard and needy) my interactions kind of look like:

me:Hi! I wanted to talk to you. Your awsome jacket caught my eye!
her: thanks
me: Don't see orange leather jackets being worn much!
her: nope!
me: So.............where are you headed tonight?
her: Xbar
me: Oh cool. I was there last night! 80's music. Love it
her: yeah
me: You like 80's music?
her: It's ok
me: Who are you here with?
her: My friends over there
me: How do you know them all?
her: Just work
me: I'm gonna guess you're in fashion for a job?
her: No. Admin.
me: Ahhh...I was way off! How do you like it?
her: it's ok. Listen I gotta go. Bye! *walks off*

Hey.
Sometimes when I try to tease, I feel as though I come across as too 'try hard'. If she gives me nothing to actually tease her about, I have to force it, so maybe it doesn't quite land.

And Stein says that his game is boring. My conversation I posted looks boring too, so maybe that's not the issue

Howver, Can you take my conversation I posted and show me how it *should* look and how you would incorporate teasing and push/pull so early into a conversation?

cheers

This just sounds like its been lifted straight from a PUA manual - routines & pre planned gimmicks - exactly what Stein said not to do.

All of the above things should be important, but they should flow naturally as a result of the conversation. You shouldn't be talking to someone & think "Oh right, I'd better try some qualification now, then after that I'll move into push-pull".

This took me a while to get back to, I'm out in Stockholm right now and I'm kind of busy so I won't be breaking down specifics. The good news is that'd be a waste of time anyway. If you want some clever elaborate shit to spice it up, you can just look up any old PUA shit, but my point is giving you specific shit to say would just mask the real problem, and you'll still eventually run out anyway because getting a girl home takes way too long. Like I said above.

In general I got 2 main things from that example. Not contributing much, and fishing for her to do it for you.

Like Kowalski said, you're really not doing much other than asking questions, and even when you make a positive statement you aren't really expressing what you think in an honest, unfiltered sort of way. Short bland stuff like 'I love 80's music'. I comes across as self conscious in it's inexpressiveness and really doesn't give the girl anything to latch onto. Is that really what you've got to say, entirely and honestly? Like, if you were talking to your best mate and he was like, ah yeah I fancy heading to xbar, is that how you'd be? Or are you just stifling your shit when you talk to girls?

In terms of the specifics of the conversation you posted, Kowalski just pretty much covered everything I'd want to say, aside from one thing (and this is just a general pet peeve of mine, loads of other people are guilty of doing this and it's dumb as fuck). But why are you excusing yourself for going up to this girl? You're in a bar and she knows the deal. Having to do that implies a lack of comfort doing it, like you aren't used to talking to people and comfortable with just doing it cos you fucking want to. If you’re a cool guy and you know that shit it’s not even necessary. It's always this fashion shit as well, dudes stopping chicks to talk to them about their ugg boots and shit. That's not don juan, that's gok wan.

Ultimately, even though you arent trying to go routines or game shit it still feels try hard because you're really obviously stifling yourself and fishing super hard with shit like guessing they're a model and stuff like that. The real truth of this shit is any old shit will do as far as content goes. If your mindset is right, it'll come across implicitly in what you say. If it's stifled and unconfident, it will come across stifled and unconfident like what you typed does.

I'm trying really hard to not give you anything you can use. If just typing out what I'd say would help, I'd do that, but it won't. It'll just leave you dancing around the actual problem for too long. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's what'll work. So here's what you do:

Your new opener is 'Hey, what's up? How's your night going?' Or some variation of that. No bullshit, and no apologising for yourself. When you ask a girl a question, don't just leave it hanging after she answers. Contribute what you think. Focus on free associating and expressing an honest opinion, even if it's 'ah I can't fucking stand Xbar' or 'admin, you poor bastard, sounds well boring'. Your criterion for success is how unstifled and honest you're being, fuck the reaction you get for the time being. That'll feel like pulling teeth at first, but the more and more often you do it the easier it'll get. Try that, and note the difference in how your reactions feel after a while.

Thanks to all who posted in this thread, btw.

I'm a little worried about disappointing Stein in case I've not internalised his remarks.

I tried to make sure to focus on free associating and expressing my own opinion. Basically CONTRIBUTING my own thoughts even if they haven't asked me, as was advised by another poster. Was slightly difficult as the 'no talking to strangers please, i'm british', was so bad with these girls that they thought the approach was a dare, but to be honest, i've had worst interactions than that!

Anyway - the short approach from last night:

2 girls sitting outside together.
me: Hey guys, how's your night going?
girls: Errrr....Hi?
me: How's your night going?
girl1: haha....what are you doing? (giggly and kind of confused tone of voice)
me: What do you mean??
girl: You don't even know us! Is this a dare??!!
me: A dare?! Yep! I just made £50 for approaching you! Not bad, eh?
girls: Ha! No, but really. IS it a dare?
me: haha, Of course not! Why would you say that? I just thought you looked cute and wanted to come and meet you
girls: Well that's unusual. You are brave.
me: Well, you're not THAT scary!
girls: I guess
Me: Having a good night?
girls: Not bad
Me: Just not bad? It doesn't sound like you're trying hard enough!
girls: hehe.
me: Who else are you here with?
girls: Just us 2 at the moment but we're meeting a friend in a minute
me: I'm out with a group of guys I play football with. You know....the guys who dared me to come and talk to you - they're over there, probably watching me!
her: haha - the pressure is on then!
me: I like pressure! So, i'm gonna guess you two are a couple of hairdressers!
Girls: wow. She's training to be one, actually! I'm in sales
me: Shit, i'm good. It was the shiny hair that gave it away! What do you sell?
girl: Technology stuff.
me: Ahhh....you're a nerd. I'm not surprised. I could kinda tell
girl: haha - you should see me when I wear glasses
me: Awww.....you wanna see me again! cute. Maybe...we'll see
girls: haha! You're cheeky!!
me: So how about you? (addressing the other girl) How goes the hair training?
girls: It's Ok
me: Can you cut guys hair? I'm in the market for a new hairdresser.
Girl1: I will be able too at some point! girl2: (looking at her phone) Listen, we have to go now, our friend just text me and she's waiting for us. See you around!
me: Wait. You're kina cool. I think you should give me your number.
girl: Sorry. I've got a boyfriend!
me: Sucks! - well then, enjoy your night. I'll see you around.

---------


OK, so despite them thinking that it was so odd to approach a stranger that it must be a dare, it went sort of OK. Didn't get teh number or anything, but maybe I just wan't her type? I dunno.

I think that I done slightly better with just talking about my answers to my own questions if that makes sense. (lke when I told her what I was up too even though she didn't ask me.) Free associating was maybe slightly better, but then lots of their answers were just like one word or maybe just a chuckle and so I had tonkeep thinkig of new things to say which as you know is where I struggle!

Getting laid from cold approach in the UK feels like climbing everest, and to be honest, I don't know anyone who can do it. All of my friends who get laid lots do it all through tinder and through social circle/work colleagues.

Not gonna give up, though. If nothing else, it might help me get better at just talking and social skills in general.

I did once get a same night lay from a cold approach in a bar, but in hindsight It was luck and all of the starts aligned that night!!

cheers

This definitely reads better than the last one. Stuff I'd say is this.

I'm guessing it felt a bit odd opening with basically nothing. If I had to guess I'd say that's probably the source of them thinking it's a dare. How you're feeling gets subcommunicated across automatically when you talk to people, whether you like it or not. If you approach thinking it's a big deal, they'll get that impression too. That's all good. Ride it out, the more you do it the more natural it will feel, and the more of a natural reaction you will get. You're still reaction fishing a fair bit, but again, this will even out a lot as you get more comfortable with it.
One more thing I'd say is instead of trying to get a number so early, just speak to the same girls later on in the night. It's fine to have short interactions early on, I used to just have a few super short ones to loosen up back in the day. But bear in mind, shit ain't necessarily over just because they've got to go right now. You can hit up the same people like 3 or 4 times in a night easy, in fact that's what I do quite a bit. Shit is rarely instantly on when you're starting, but you'll often find that if you hit up some girls early on then speak to them later shit is way cooler and easier. You'll find this works way better than just grabbing a number earlier. You'll often find that with a number off a short interaction girls won't even remember who the fuck you are. Focus on talking to people more, works much better, and even if it doesn't it's good practise.

Nice one for taking my advice and applying it too. Most new guys just come on here expecting to get their own preconceptions confirmed, so good one for listening, it's how you'll get better. Keep at it.